Politically Correct 6

[Thadeus]

This post addresses the term 'politically correct'.

I only ask that we avoid an actual political discussion and stick to the way the words are used.

So to kick off the discussion, I'll ask, "What does the term 'politically correct' connote to the listener/reader?"

~Thadeus

 

[rosieb]

I think you've hit the nail on the head, PC is to do with saying the right words, decency is to do with having the right attitude.

Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[rosieb]

Oh, yes, and a good example of genuine decency, is that I found 3 of my staff discussing whether Xmas decorations could offend our Muslim colleague (they don't)- nothing to do with PC, everything to do with personal consideration.

Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[wuneyej]

Unless you're talking about The United Negro College Fund, or the Negro Leagues of baseball's yesteryear, using the word "negro" in conversation anywhere in Chicago will get you some undesirable looks from people around you. That I can guarantee. Same goes for "colored". Though, you can say "people of color" and probably be safe.

To call peoples from Southeast Asia "oriental" is a big no-no also, though I still hear older folks say it while having no idea it's not, well, PC.

 

[Mr3Putt]

It's not the words used, it's who uses them and how. A colleague can refer to me as a "girlie" and ask me to make coffee, it's a joke - we both know it. From someone else, who meant it, it would be deeply insulting.

To argue against this, I would use the example of I Corinthians 6:---something or other. The Apostle Paul seeks to answer the Church at Corinth's questions regarding eating of animals that had been sacrificed to an idol. A perfectly OK source of meat, they argued, since the idol was just a pile of rock, and not actually god.

Paul tells them that He knows, and They know that there's no problem... but the people they interact with may be horrified by it. They would create a barrier between themselves and the unbelievers, for they were doing something terrible. Wouldn't a "christian" have eaten only "clean" meats? Therefore, better to abide by local custom. He instructs that, while the Corinthians are free from the fetters of the idol-worshippers' customs, they should not allow that freedom to cause their brother to stumble. Our actions are instructive. They are seen as "how we are". Whether it is fair to judge our worthiness by a glimpse of our life... sometimes that's the only knowledge someone has of us.

Urk. I hate using scriptural reference. It's so un-PC... plus, I don't believe it on a spiritual level. But, in this case, I find this literature instructive. Those in the area of you and your friends may become angry, they may lose their objectivity, they may run your actions through their filters of experience, they may decide: If it's okay for her to say "XXX" to that person, then it's okay for me, too... and they would be wrong, wouldn't they?

So, groups without fear of upset still ought to be mindful of their effect on the innocent bystander.

Sorry if that all sounds like some sort of call to the jeezus; it's not. It's just an example I remember from growing up. If it's okay for US, then others can believe it's okay for THEM... so let's not be misleading (if we can help it).

... go ahead, let me have it, I know it's coming... I mentioned the "B" word.

[red]Note:[/red] [gray]The above comments are the opinionated ravings of Mr3Putt. As such, Mr3Putt accepts no responsibility for damages, real or contrived, resulting from acceptance of his opinions as fact.[/gray]

 

[Dimandja]

I feel you wuneyej. That's why I avoid some circles. But, saying "anywhere in Chicago" is a huge stretch.

Not because I have lived in, and know the Great Lakes area very well, but because I have used all those words (and more) without concern, since I was not insulting anyone.

Context and attitude is important. And Chicagoans do know the difference.

 

[rosieb]

Mr3Putt
I see your point, and, to an extent, I agree , but my colleague referring to me as a "Girlie" is being ironic, he knows it isn't meant (and he knows that I know...) and he expects others to realise that. (And Paul wasn't known for his sense of humour, specially towards us girlies)

However,this would only ever happen amongst people who would appreciate the joke.

Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[wuneyej]

Dimandja

I'm merely speaking from experience.

Yes, Chicagoans do know the difference when it comes to context and attitude. But even when it's said with the best intentions, there will still be those present who will find the usage revolting.

Let's say the sweetest, most loving grandma you ever knew just got a part time job in the copy room at my place of employment. The night before her first day of work she watched the movie Amistad, and was deeply moved by the experience. A coworker in the copy room starts up a conversation by asking, "Has anyone seen any good movies lately?" Grandma jumps in and says, "I just watched Amistad and thought it was such a touching story. Those negroes sure had it bad."

If there were 5 other people in that copy room, black, white, hispanic, no matter, at least one of them would be thinking something like This lady must have spent the last 60 years on moon.

She may not have offended anyone, but she certainly caused a reaction she wasn't looking for.

Hey, just my take.

JP

 

[BillyRayPreachersSon]

But even when it's said with the best intentions, there will still be those present who will find the usage revolting.

For me, this is a crucial point - intent.

If someone is specifically using a word or phrase with the intent of causing alarm, upset, distress, or offense, then that would most definately be un-PC in my book.

The use of the same words of phrase by someone who genuinely had no idea that they were doing anything wrong may be frowned upon by some, but I would say in these cases, it would be better to "educate" the "wrong-doer" rather than slate them for something they didn't know they were doing.

Of course, you also have cases where derogatory words and phrases are twisted around to be used in a positive or empowering way. For example, many gay people use the term "queer" to refer to themselves, and many black comedians and singers use the term "nigger" to refer to themselves.

Of course, while most people within these groups see this as perfectly acceptable, I do think it can cause confusion, as others may think that if people refer to themselevs with these terms, it must be OK for them to do so too - which comes right back to intent. I have no problem with any of my friends referring to me as "queer" (although I prefer "gay"), but if a stranger did so, I would be seriously offended.

Dan

 

[wuneyej]

I agree with you, Dan. Intent is key.

What I was trying to say is that using terms like "negro" and "colored" where "black" or "African-American" could have been used in their place will likely have the speaker coming off as poorly educated, ignorant, clueless, and/or thoughtless.

We can all argue whether those feelings would be justified. To me, that's not the issue. The original question was asking if usage of these terms "offend anyone".
My answer to that question is YES. Not all the time, maybe not most of the time, but CERTAINLY some of the time. Even if a participant in the conversation is well aware that the speaker has good intentions, that participant could be thinking something like This moron actually thinks he's being nice.

Again, I speak from experience. Personally, I wouldn't get offended if I knew the speaker had good intentions, but I do admit that I often cringe when I hear these terms.

My advice is this: If you want to come off as an intelligent, open minded, considerate, and kind person (which I know ALL is thread are), avoid using these terms.

JP

 

[Dimandja]

I see your point wuneyej.

Some people have occasionally asked me whether I had suffered from racial slurs. The answer is yes and no.

First of all, I didn't know I were "black" or "negro" before I came to the US. I never really thought in skin colors when I lived in my region of Africa. All black (native) people were referred to as "people", while non-black people in the area were referred to as "visitors". In fact, there are no racial designations in the African languages I speak. We called ourselves "people". In my native African language the word for people is "antu" or "bantu". This is the word used universally to describe black Africans -- people.

A word like "nigger" was primarily used to "hurt" people, and does not exist in African vocabulary. It's an invention of a violent or hateful society. That black artists embrace that word, is only a testimony to their efforts to dilute a slur that cannot be avoided.

So, when I first heard those slurs, I didn't know what to make of them. When I learned about the hate and violence that exists in the American society, and the "weapons" used to wage them, I started to feel the pointed edge of the "nigger" dagger.

However, today, the word does no longer mean much to me, when it is wielded by an ignorant person. Instead, I feel sorry for the poor uneducated soul. On the other hand, when someone who should know better is using it to "hurt", then it means as much as if someone called me "son-of-a-bitch": mainly nothing, because it represents the person's inability to effectively deal with frustration or anger.

 

[Mr3Putt]

Dimandja, you are, clearly, not the target audience for Political Correctness. You are obviously too even tempered, objective, and analytic to be fooled by PC or stirred by the non-PC.

The audience for Political Correctness is comprised of the easily offended. And not just the easily offended, but especially those looking to take offense. Those with a personal or societal axe to grind must be handled with PC gloves, because they attempt to be insulted by anything not lined with the feathers of PC-talk.

If Advocate-A speaks of her program to assist local Black business owners, then Advocate-B and his camp can decry A's insensitivity to community of African-Americans.

The debate, thus, is not waged on the merits of either group's proprosal, but on the means of presentation. The B-Camp can easily obfuscate the program by simple binary opposition: "She disrespects the African American people by referring to them as 'Black'. We do respect our African American business leaders. That's why we refer to them as 'African-Americans'. Nevermind what is in our business proposal, let's talk about other things."

The work of PC speech can be to imply ill intent on those not following the PC pattern. Bad news for all.

The Politically Correct talk the talk, but the Morally Correct walk the walk.

So, back to Question #1 of this thread: What does PC connote to the listener/reader? It connotes a divisive nature.

It is no accident that it is Political Correctness. Ask listeners/readers what "Politician" connotes... someone with an agenda, someone seeking personal gain and personal power through the manipulation of others.

[red]Note:[/red] [gray]The above comments are the opinionated ravings of Mr3Putt. As such, Mr3Putt accepts no responsibility for damages, real or contrived, resulting from acceptance of his opinions as fact.[/gray]

 

[mscallisto]

Political Correctness quite simply stifles my freedom of speech and I don't like that.

I agree with most of the above posts, politeness, manners and sensitivity work just fine.

Nice job ACLU you're taking away a civil liberty!

 

[KenCunningham]

I tend to agree with mscalllisto. Only yesterday my 3 year-old son, referring to another child in his nursery, referred to the latter as 'brown' because she's 'coloured', 'black' or whatever other euphamisms we choose to use. 'Brown' to me to be an honest assessment of the position - out of the mouths of babes, as it were. We should celebrate our diversity in all it's forms, whilst at the same time enjoying our commonality to the same extent.

 

[MakeItSo]

Right, Ken. We should be thankful, that not everyone on Earth is as pale as... me... ;o)

P.S: Just imagine how boring it must be on the planet the Roswell's came from...grey!


[blue]The last voice we will hear before the world explodes will be that of an expert saying:
"This is technically impossible!" - Sir Peter Ustinov[/blue]

 

[SteveGlo]

I wish someone would publish the official list of politically correct terms and keep it regularly updated.

I work in an organisation which takes the PC doctrine to the limits. Consequently I treat everyone with extreme formality because I'm scared of inadvertently giving offence if the idiom has changed and I haven't kept up - I believe that one false step and I could be sacked.

As a result my colleagues find me cold, itself a cause for concern in the minds of the Controllers.

NB I apologise for any use I may have made of non-PC terms in the above statements.

 

[MakeItSo]

I find all this talk about "politically correct" overdone.
As long as you keep some tact and discretion and don't degrade yourself by using vulgar and/or insulting speech, you're politically correct enough for me!

I'm not scared of stepping on anyones foot, if I don't do it too harshly and if I can stand for my opinion.

Being politically correct does not mean having to treat everyone with extreme formality.

As long as you keep upright, no one can chide you for it.


[blue]The last voice we will hear before the world explodes will be that of an expert saying:
"This is technically impossible!" - Sir Peter Ustinov[/blue]

 

[SteveGlo]

MakeItSo

Quite - but you come across as being a reasonable person.

I work in the sort of place where you can be sent on a course to be re-educated if you say "chairman" instead of "chairperson" in the wrong place or at the wrong time.

It doesn't bother me too much as I've been around a long time so I know how to get by - but I have to wince on their behalf when I overhear some of the newer staff who haven't picked up on the prevalent culture.

Steve

 

[MakeItSo]

Steve: sounds like you're working in hell - or in Orwell's 1984...
...sent on a course to be re-educated...

How about dear armchairperson getting some leadership education in the first place...


[blue]The last voice we will hear before the world explodes will be that of an expert saying:
"This is technically impossible!" - Sir Peter Ustinov[/blue]

 

[KenCunningham]

The worst of it is, re-education was a key part of Mao's Cultural Revolution last century.

 

[Thadeus]

I feel that this was a very good conversation. Here are some of my observations from the discussion.

I find it funny that just about everyone in this conversation claims to not be "Politically Correct".

Instead, they will claim they have tact, respect and morals, but Political Correctness is anathema.

It is also interesting how many people tried to define "Political Correctness" rather than discuss its connotation.

There was a large coonotation contingent however and I feel that they did a very good job of pointing out how "political correct" is a term used just as sharply as those other words of derision we use to categorize people.

It is morally incorrect or lacking tact to describe people in perceived derogatory terms of color, nationality, sexual orientation, etc., but it is obviously OK to bash them over the head as "PC".

I feel that it is a shame that being polite and showing respect and tact in conversation, has been saddled with such a harsh term.

Take a moment next time you hear the phrase and think about the current intent of the speaker. Is it meant to bash someone who may have been guilty of trying to be polite? Are they trying to gain some effect by using the term?

Not that I am closing the thread, but I wanted to take a moment and thank you all for participating.

~Thadeus