Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!

Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!

  • Congratulations IamaSherpa on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Cursive...foiled again! 4

Status
Not open for further replies.

jebenson

Technical User
Feb 4, 2002
2,956
US
I found this story in my local daily newspaper:

With emphasis on computers, schools are writing off cursive

the site requires a simple registration, but if you don't want to do that I have copied the story here

************************************************************
With emphasis on computers, schools are writing off cursive
By Matthew Obernauer
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Wednesday, January 11, 2006
The yellowed parchment lies between armed guards in Washington's National Archives, in a palatial room with marble columns, oil paintings and polished floors — a room dubbed "the Rotunda for the Charters of Freedom."

"We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union . . ." it begins.

For centuries, Americans have marveled at the words and ideas imbued in the Constitution, as well as the sure and steady hand that recorded those words in extravagant loops and curves.

All of which raises the question: Would we make such a fuss over the document if the founders had typed it in Microsoft Word?

Today, written communication is increasingly being replaced by computer messages. And, while adding computer proficiency requirements, school districts across Texas and the nation are de-emphasizing cursive writing in elementary school training. In higher grades, teachers are seeing less work done in cursive and more in block lettering or on computer printouts.

Furthermore, some teachers say that with the pressure to help students pass high-stakes achievement tests, they don't have time or classroom resources to ensure that students master all aspects of handwriting.

Traditional penmanship, like calligraphy before it, is fast becoming a lost art.

Irma Webber, a fifth-grade teacher at Kiker Elementary School in Southwest Austin, said only two of her 29 students write in cursive, and few have traditional penmanship skills.

"I have kids who make letters in very creative ways," she said.

The state's guidelines on cursive writing are ambiguous. When the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills curriculum requirements were adopted in 1998, the state changed the requirement that students learn to write legible cursive letters in addition to learning manuscript, or printing.
Instead, according to an October 2004 clarification, the state mandates only that in third grade "students master manuscript writing and may begin to use cursive writing." In Grades 4 through 8, however, the same clarification notes, "it is assumed that students have learned cursive handwriting by the time they enter Grade 4."

Texas Education Agency spokeswoman DeEtta Culbertson said, "We'd like them to still use cursive, but the district determines how the handwriting (instruction) will be used."
No one can say how many students are or aren't learning cursive. Still, for many, saving cursive writing is more than a matter of nostalgia.

"I would prefer them to learn both" manuscript and cursive, said Travis Heights Elementary PTA President Christina Roman, whose son is learning cursive writing in the second grade. "I do think it's a valuable lesson, and it teaches more than just how to write in cursive. It teaches pen control, coordination — stuff like that."

In response to requests from parents, Manor school district administrators this semester will decide whether to create a specific curriculum to teach cursive writing, which would require time and money to create lesson plans and train teachers. Manor Deputy Superintendent Andrew Kim said, "This is one of those issues as a community that we need to look at and see if our community says, 'We value cursive writing in an age of technology.' "

The Austin school district's third-grade language arts curriculum does not require cursive writing instruction, only that "students gain more proficient control of all aspects of penmanship." Officials said the district provides textbooks and materials for students to learn cursive writing during the second semester of second grade and in third grade but does not mandate instruction in cursive.
Some Austin teachers said there is not enough class time to teach cursive writing.

Third grade is the first year in which students are required to pass the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills reading test to advance to the next grade, increasing the pressure to stick to the required material.

Sharon Holmes taught third grade at Pecan Springs Elementary School in East Austin during the 2004-05 school year and teaches second grade this year. "We had a handwriting portion of the day," she said. "We may not have gotten to it every day, because we were working on reading and math" and science.

Patricia Detrich, a third-grade teacher at Becker Elementary School in South Austin, said, "It's difficult enough to find time as it is to teach what we're required to teach.

"I do have students who desire to learn cursive writing, so I'll provide independent time, individual teaching (outside of class) to some students to make some of the strokes," Detrich said.

Webber said she and other teachers try to teach cursive writing incrementally, such as instructing children on how to write their names. She said, "Cursive right now is a choice."

Some teachers think the marginalization of cursive writing is just as it should be — class time, they argue, is better used on other things.

"I don't feel like it's a great loss," Detrich said. "I feel like the most important things to teach these days are problem-solving, logical reasoning, critical thinking — and that doesn't have anything to do with cursive writing.

"My son, who is 15 and a freshman at Austin High, spent his entire third-grade year, and had a year of specific instruction, in cursive and has never used it since."

************************************************************

I find this interesting because last night I was working on some homework with my kindergardener child, and part of it was learning cursive. Now I don't know about you, but I feel that kindergarden is a bit too early to be teaching cursive handwriting. My son got rather confused, as he still has not mastered the lower-case alphabet in block letters, and now the cursive is really throwing him for a loop (pun intended).

So what do you folks think? Is cursive really necessary? I don't use it at all, and I know very few people who actually do use it regularly. I still write a lot by hand, but it's all in block letters. In today's society, is cursive writing still seen as elegant or could it be viewed as actually impeding communication? That is, in trying to decipher someone's chicken-scratch handwriting - or even clear cursive if the reader is unfamiliar with it - is the reader so distracted that the message of the writing is diluted or obscured?

I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson
 
==> Oh, 'yet' could be 'but', right?
CC ===>Exactly!

Well, "but" for a few letters. [wink]
 
In real life people don't have time for this crap"

That is a choice, is it not?

I was looking through my old journals, some more than 40 years old. I have over 100 filled books, with most of them in the range of 250 - 300 pages. All of them are cursive writing.

It is interesting that at some points I "write" in print (that is, in block letters). However, these instances are few and far between.

It is also interesting that at some points my cursive writing is so poor that I now have NO idea what I was writing. I can get 90% of it, but there are passages that are completely illegible. Lying on a beach on a Greek island with a fever of 105 (F) from malaria; trying to calm down after being shot at on the Iran/Russian border (although it was still the Soviet Union then). What I find interesting is that while the illegibility is somewhat annoying, the emotive dynamic that comes across because of that scrawling is very powerful. I do not believe this would be as potent with printing. Perhaps, but perhaps not.

I totally agree that cursive writing is disappearing. It is almost gone. However, so has letter writing. How many of you actually get letters? I do not mean email. I mean letters, real letters, ones that are longer than a page. Of the few (I think) who do, how many are handwritten?

Is this a bad thing, the disappearance of handwritten communication? On one hand, no, if there is an increase of real communication. Brief email does not, IMHO, count as "real" communication. However, the ability to communicate with so many people via electronic means is decidedly a plus.

One the other hand, I believe that taking the time to write counts a great deal. I also think that writing can indeed convey tonal content that affects the meaning of the message. This tonality is much harder to achieve with block printing - even if it is hand done.

Gerry
 
Gerry,

What a powerful testimony of the use of your writing skills. Your first-hand comparison and contrasting of writing modes and effective discounting of the notion that "In real life people don't have time for this crap" reminds me of the person focussed simply on moving from Point A to Point B and discounts the notion of walking, jogging, riding a mountain bike through the woods, or skiing/snowboarding down a mountainside of fresh powder, all in favour of using an auto or an airplane "because it's faster."

Obviously, these differing modes of conveyance are not simply for the purpose of moving from Point A to Point B. By the same token, using cursive, calligraphy, or even block printing often have purposes that transcend simply "conveying" text from Person A to Person B.

Equally as obvious (I hope) is that a person focussing simply upon moving from Point A to Point B and having no skills on skiis/snowboard misses out on a delightful and exhilarating opportunity to commune with nature.

The same holds true for one who simply communicates via phone and keyboard: they miss out on a delightful and rewarding opportunity to "commune" with a friend or family member that cannot occur in the same spirit as with various alternative hand-written modes.

Would our lives not be much faster if we didn't "waste" our time on such frivolities as the non-technical fora in Tek-Tips? I know that you all and these fora and threads have enriched my life from your individual and collective notions here...But think of all the time that we'd all save if we didn't participate here.

Thanks, Gerry, for gently summing up and driving home the gist of this thread. Have a Purple Star for your eloquence.

[santa]Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[ Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.
 
Gerry,

Thank you for the telling of the history of your journals. I did manage to keep a few journals from years ago. Mainly travel related. As my wife and I go through the never-ending collection of stuff in the house, they give us a needed break when we inadvertently come upon them. Why I sometimes used script instead of block writing I can't recall. But had I not written those stories, many would be gone, or too fuzzy from just memory.

As for the written word versus the computer notes (I digress from the cursive discussion), I regret what I did when my daughter was learning to speak. I had a PDA and used it quite a bit. The calendar and phone book were quite a convenience and it fit in my pocket. I became quite adept at jotting notes on the thing. I made a little section where I could write some of the crazy and entertaining things only a little child could say. It amused me to no end and I thought it would be fun to bring out to her later in life, perhaps when the first boyfriend comes over?

Of course we had a hard drive failure so the back-ups were gone from the little thing. No worries right? It would work with the new computer? Well the car was stolen (a bad week!) and the one night I left that and a few other valuables in the car? GONE.

Lesson learned. Write it down! Sure, something can happen to a journal, but the odds of a computer problem are far higher. Yes, I have since started a written journal.

I feel that this is somewhat relative to the discussion in that the medium can be important in conveying the message, or a valuable part of the message.

Nick
 
I am delighted with the response. A little surprised, although I suppose I should not be. There are some obviously thoughtful and sensitive people here. Thank you Dave..it is very very appreciated. In fact, I think I am more pleased with that star that any other.

Nick...yeah. Do your back ups, do your back ups, do your back ups. However, some things really ARE analog, not digital. For the time being, thoughts are analog. Messy and (pun intended) indiscrete.

Gerry
 
I have to learn how to be more sensitive to fit in.
I have to learn how to be more sensitive to fit in.
I have to learn how to be more sensitive to fit in.
 
Fit in? Uh....fit in where exactly? Besides, quite often it is those who do NOT fit that are the more interesting.

I am with Dave on this....what is your point? Why do you even want to fit in? Who is "in" that you want to fit with?

Sounds vaguely like some sort of cabal - which is hardly the case here.

Gerry
 
I think it's safe to say that we're all square pegs in round holes.

Or something of that nature. I've never fit into any mold properly. We all have a bit of uniqueness to us.

Fitting in is something you have to do at work or at school possibly, but I've never found that to be a rule of thumb here!

I've found Tek-Tips to be quite hospitable and I don't have to worry about fitting in with the crowd.

Now I'm going to go write a letter to my Grandma. In cursive.
 
Dollie said:
I've never fit into any mold properly.
Although I, too, do not fit well into any mold, I do enjoy sautéed mushrooms.[rofl]Oh, I do amuse myself, don't I?

[santa]Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[ Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.
 
I don't realy feel about past so I am more about future.
I do not fit with sensitive people at work.
So I leave stuff behind easily and I do understand if we will hold on to it - it will hold us back and technical progress wouldn't be possible with cursive writing. Though it is pretty but outdated. But what's promising to me is I do like sautéed mushrooms as Santa. So there is hope.
 
Do you fit with sensitive people outside of work?

And what the heck does "sensitive" mean, anyway?

MMmmmmmmmm shitakes, with a touch of garlic, mmmmmmmmmmmm.

Gerry
 
CR,
I would like to share Steve Jobs' Commencement address at Stanford University with you.
Reed College at that time offered perhaps the best calligraphy instruction in the country. Throughout the campus every poster, every label on every drawer, was beautifully hand calligraphed. Because I had dropped out and didn't have to take the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif and san serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture, and I found it fascinating.

None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But ten years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography. If I had never dropped in on that single course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts. And since Windows just copied the Mac, its likely that no personal computer would have them. If I had never dropped out, I would have never dropped in on this calligraphy class, and personal computers might not have the wonderful typography that they do. Of course it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards ten years later.
Like he says, "you can't connect the dots looking forward".
 
TheRambler posted "you can't connect the dots looking forward"
Do you want to? Or have to? What for?

fumei,
I would say I would fit with sensitive people outside of work but most of us are rather cynics then lyrics. We believe that laying on the grass and admiring a sky is not going to DO anything to anyone. Get up and go go go, teach, do something while you can. When you can't anymore - go ahead lay down, stare in a sky if it is the only thing to do for you.
And btw - I do not use ANY of those 'gorgeous' fonts while working. So what is the point in it for me?
(ok, I am exadurating a little but just a bit)
 
CRilliterate said:
And btw - I do not use ANY of those 'gorgeous' fonts while working. So what is the point in it for me?
So you don't use any proportional fonts at all? You never type a document?

Times New Roman? That's one of the "serif" fonts he's talking about.

Helvetica? That's one of the "sans serif" fonts he's talking about.
 
Definitely not Helvetica!!!
Times New Roman actually one I use - would use if I needed to. (I said I was exadurating a bit)
 
CRilliterate said:
Definitely not Helvetica!!!
Ok, that's actually a good thing.

CRilliterate said:
Times New Roman actually one I use - would use if I needed to. (I said I was exadurating a bit)
All right; I couldn't tell whether you were exaggerating in the first part of your post or the second.

Steve Jobbs's claim is that we'd probably all be using something like Courier if he hadn't taken a calligraphy class. He's wrong, of course; if Microsoft hadn't stolen proportional fonts from Macintosh, it would have stolen them from Unix (which had them back when Steve Jobbs was still taking his calligraphy class) and everyone might be using wroff right now.

At any rate, his point was that learning something with no apparent "use" (like calligraphy, in his time, and like cursive today), can give you insight on solving problems you never would have expected.

CRilliterate said:
I would say I would fit with sensitive people outside of work but most of us are rather cynics then lyrics. We believe that laying on the grass and admiring a sky is not going to DO anything to anyone. Get up and go go go, teach, do something while you can. When you can't anymore - go ahead lay down, stare in a sky if it is the only thing to do for you.
So what if laying there admiring the sky gave you insight on how to get up and go go go in a better way? Have you ever tried it? You might be surprised.
 
CRilliterate said:
Get up and go go go, teach, do something while you can.

Those of us still using the antiquated "Cursive Writing System" as a means of communication could always teach some young buck how the old timer's used to write.

Is cursive the 21st century version of calligraphy?

(Oh and as an aside, I thought of this thread and all the participants the other night when watching a special on PBS about a man who spent 3 years creating a calligraphed bible by hand. It was the most beautiful work of art I've ever seen.)
 
Myself said:
So what if laying there admiring the sky...
I'd better correct that to "lying" before someone suggests that I think grammar is antiquated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor

Back
Top