That vs. which - again 3

[ESquared]

I said somewhere or other, "it has its own aspects which those who disagree can target."

I think it should have been "it has its own aspects that those who disagree can target."

I think my phrase was wrong because which seems to imply a clause coming that starts with a verb modifying it. For example, "it has its own aspects which are interesting" or "it has its own aspects which annoy me."

But I am not sure that this should be which here, either. A that would work also.

Help?

 

[sleipnir214]

I have to disagree with columb. I interpret the clase to be a restrictive clause, so "that" is the correct word:

The generator is fitted with a number of temperature sensors that/which will cause the generator to shut down if the engine overheats.


The difference seems clearer to me if I rewrite the sentence, getting rid of passive voice:

We have fitted the generator with temperature sensors that will shut down the generator when the engine overheats.


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[SantaMufasa]

Chris,

I'll attempt to clarify each of the differences in meaning:

Option 1: "The generator is fitted with a number of temperature sensors that will cause the generator to shut down if the engine overheats."

Meaning: There are temperature sensors on the generator, some of which are implemented for the purpose of shutting down an overheating engine; other temperature sensors (may) exist on the generator for other purposes besides shutting down an overheating engine. Use of "that" implies "vital restriction", meaning that without the clause, one cannot be certain to which of the generator's temperature sensors the sentence refers.

Option 2: "The generator is fitted with a number of temperature sensors, which will cause the generator to shut down if the engine overheats."

Meaning: There are temperature sensors on the generator. Incidentally, the sensors shut down the generator in the case of overheating.

Note that use of "which" to specify "non-restrictive" information requires a comma to offset the "which" clause, since the clause is optional/not necessary to specify which temperature sensors are the focus of the sentence.



Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[ESquared]

To me, it comes down to the question, "do the temperature sensors themselves shut down the engine?"

If the temperature sensors function like a thermostat, where the actual power to the engine is routed through them, then I would say to use that in the sentence. These temperature sensors are the kind that (restrictive here, to distinguish from other kinds) shut down overheating generators.

If instead, the information provided by the sensors is used by other electronics that (!) themselves shut down the engine, then I would say to use which.

The temperature sensors do nothing by themselves to shut down the engine, any old temperature sensor that fits the machine and accurate measures temperature will do. It is only by proxy that the sensors "do" anything. We shorthand this meaning by saying the sensors shut down the engines, but the understanding is that they simply initiated the shutdown.

In re-reading SantaMufasa's option 2, it seems to me that the which modifies "the generator is fitted" rather than "sensors." The important thing is the fact of the generator being fitted, not the sensors themselves. Perhaps this is another useful way to look at the meaning.

And Dave, is the comma absolutely required? Must non-restrictive clauses always be introduced with a comma?

 

[CajunCenturion]

To me, there is no question that 'that' is the correct word in that sentence because the sensors are there for one reason - to shut it down when necessary. There is nothing incidental about that.

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[MeGustaXL]

This is why I say AAAAAAAARRRRGGGHH!

Like CajunCenturion, "To me, there is no question that 'that' is the correct word in that sentence "

E² makes me lean towards which though, because the shutdown is initiated by other electronics reacting to information sent by the sensors.

My Decision...

When in doubt, do what you first thought of (as I'm sure someone has said before), so I'm going to use that


_{Unless anyone tells me different}


Chris

When his pin is pulled, Mr Grenade is not our friend - USMC Infantry Manual

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> If instead, the information provided by the sensors is used by other electronics that (!) themselves shut down the engine, then I would say to use which.
I'm sorry, but there is no grammatical foundation for that suggestion; however, there is a legitimate semantic question. The sentence, as written, uses a clause to define a relationship between the sensor and the shut down process. It's perfectly reasonable to discuss whether the sentence is semantically valid based on whether or not that relationship is direct or indirect, but that question has no bearing on the grammatical issue of whether the clause is restrictive (that) or non-restrictive (which).

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[MeGustaXL]

The Top Ten Reasons Why I'm Indecisive

1. I can't make up my mind. (Or should this be second?)
2. Maybe it's because I can't make up my mind. (I might put this first, actually)
3. Sometimes I find it hard to choose whether I should use 'that' or 'which'.
4. I'm uncertain about number 3 - maybe it should be at No.1
5. I'll do the rest later.
6. Unless I get precise instructions, I do it wrong.
7. I don't know for sure if No.6 should read "...do it wrongly"
8. Maybe #5 should be 1^st
9. I need help to think of the next 3.
10. Or should that be 2?

Chris

When his pin is pulled, Mr Grenade is not our friend - USMC Infantry Manual

 

[ESquared]

I see what you're saying, CC... I was just offering that "which" could be correct, if it was modifying something other than the sensors, like the fact of having been fitted. Do you still disagree?

 

[SantaMufasa]

Ladies and Gents,

I don't understand what the issues are on this topic. Are any of the things that I said earlier, which explained the differences between "that" and "which", incorrect or incomplete? <grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> I was just offering that "which" could be correct, if it was modifying something other than the sensors, like the fact of having been fitted. Do you still disagree?
Yes, I still disagree. The scenario you describe does not justify the use of 'which', but rather, introduces a "misplaced modifier" error.


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Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[ESquared]

Interesting.