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Cursive...foiled again! 4

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jebenson

Technical User
Feb 4, 2002
2,956
US
I found this story in my local daily newspaper:

With emphasis on computers, schools are writing off cursive

the site requires a simple registration, but if you don't want to do that I have copied the story here

************************************************************
With emphasis on computers, schools are writing off cursive
By Matthew Obernauer
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Wednesday, January 11, 2006
The yellowed parchment lies between armed guards in Washington's National Archives, in a palatial room with marble columns, oil paintings and polished floors — a room dubbed "the Rotunda for the Charters of Freedom."

"We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union . . ." it begins.

For centuries, Americans have marveled at the words and ideas imbued in the Constitution, as well as the sure and steady hand that recorded those words in extravagant loops and curves.

All of which raises the question: Would we make such a fuss over the document if the founders had typed it in Microsoft Word?

Today, written communication is increasingly being replaced by computer messages. And, while adding computer proficiency requirements, school districts across Texas and the nation are de-emphasizing cursive writing in elementary school training. In higher grades, teachers are seeing less work done in cursive and more in block lettering or on computer printouts.

Furthermore, some teachers say that with the pressure to help students pass high-stakes achievement tests, they don't have time or classroom resources to ensure that students master all aspects of handwriting.

Traditional penmanship, like calligraphy before it, is fast becoming a lost art.

Irma Webber, a fifth-grade teacher at Kiker Elementary School in Southwest Austin, said only two of her 29 students write in cursive, and few have traditional penmanship skills.

"I have kids who make letters in very creative ways," she said.

The state's guidelines on cursive writing are ambiguous. When the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills curriculum requirements were adopted in 1998, the state changed the requirement that students learn to write legible cursive letters in addition to learning manuscript, or printing.
Instead, according to an October 2004 clarification, the state mandates only that in third grade "students master manuscript writing and may begin to use cursive writing." In Grades 4 through 8, however, the same clarification notes, "it is assumed that students have learned cursive handwriting by the time they enter Grade 4."

Texas Education Agency spokeswoman DeEtta Culbertson said, "We'd like them to still use cursive, but the district determines how the handwriting (instruction) will be used."
No one can say how many students are or aren't learning cursive. Still, for many, saving cursive writing is more than a matter of nostalgia.

"I would prefer them to learn both" manuscript and cursive, said Travis Heights Elementary PTA President Christina Roman, whose son is learning cursive writing in the second grade. "I do think it's a valuable lesson, and it teaches more than just how to write in cursive. It teaches pen control, coordination — stuff like that."

In response to requests from parents, Manor school district administrators this semester will decide whether to create a specific curriculum to teach cursive writing, which would require time and money to create lesson plans and train teachers. Manor Deputy Superintendent Andrew Kim said, "This is one of those issues as a community that we need to look at and see if our community says, 'We value cursive writing in an age of technology.' "

The Austin school district's third-grade language arts curriculum does not require cursive writing instruction, only that "students gain more proficient control of all aspects of penmanship." Officials said the district provides textbooks and materials for students to learn cursive writing during the second semester of second grade and in third grade but does not mandate instruction in cursive.
Some Austin teachers said there is not enough class time to teach cursive writing.

Third grade is the first year in which students are required to pass the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills reading test to advance to the next grade, increasing the pressure to stick to the required material.

Sharon Holmes taught third grade at Pecan Springs Elementary School in East Austin during the 2004-05 school year and teaches second grade this year. "We had a handwriting portion of the day," she said. "We may not have gotten to it every day, because we were working on reading and math" and science.

Patricia Detrich, a third-grade teacher at Becker Elementary School in South Austin, said, "It's difficult enough to find time as it is to teach what we're required to teach.

"I do have students who desire to learn cursive writing, so I'll provide independent time, individual teaching (outside of class) to some students to make some of the strokes," Detrich said.

Webber said she and other teachers try to teach cursive writing incrementally, such as instructing children on how to write their names. She said, "Cursive right now is a choice."

Some teachers think the marginalization of cursive writing is just as it should be — class time, they argue, is better used on other things.

"I don't feel like it's a great loss," Detrich said. "I feel like the most important things to teach these days are problem-solving, logical reasoning, critical thinking — and that doesn't have anything to do with cursive writing.

"My son, who is 15 and a freshman at Austin High, spent his entire third-grade year, and had a year of specific instruction, in cursive and has never used it since."

************************************************************

I find this interesting because last night I was working on some homework with my kindergardener child, and part of it was learning cursive. Now I don't know about you, but I feel that kindergarden is a bit too early to be teaching cursive handwriting. My son got rather confused, as he still has not mastered the lower-case alphabet in block letters, and now the cursive is really throwing him for a loop (pun intended).

So what do you folks think? Is cursive really necessary? I don't use it at all, and I know very few people who actually do use it regularly. I still write a lot by hand, but it's all in block letters. In today's society, is cursive writing still seen as elegant or could it be viewed as actually impeding communication? That is, in trying to decipher someone's chicken-scratch handwriting - or even clear cursive if the reader is unfamiliar with it - is the reader so distracted that the message of the writing is diluted or obscured?

I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson
 
But, I see a whole lot of decent reasons to give kids at least some opportunity to learn cursive
Dave,
Please present a few for discussion. So far it seems that the only reasons offered are totally aesthetic.

The only other reason offered is that it offers the mind and fingers a challenge, but the same could be said for teaching children intricate beadworking.

~Thadeus
 
An interesting topic. Going back to Dave (Santa's) point about love letters. We had our first year primary (4½ years old) son write out his Grandad's Christmas card using the skills he was learning at school. Admittedly, the result was somewhat less than perfect, but if my father hadn't received another present on Christmas day he wouldn't have minded, given his evident joy at the effort put in by Craig.

Slightly off at a tangent, I guess there could be an argument for writing all love letters in Times New Roman or whatever, particularly if one doesn't want them to be attributable!
 
Just re-read my last post and before anyone asks, no I don't live on Walton Mountain.
 
What's wrong with asthectics?

Cursive writing in far more personal and intimate. In this day and age, where technology is so pervasive, tools that enhance personal relationships have to be beneficial.

--------------
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Oh I don't know.... asthectics? Frankly, receiving a note from my love that starts off with "Dear Broad....", typed in times new roman, or printed with the skill of a child sounds soooooooooo romantic!

[love]
 
I like this:

Who ever heard of Casablanca? I don't want to star opposite some unknown Swedish broad.
-- George Raft, on the role of Rick in Casablanca.

 
What's wrong with asthectics?
Absolutely nothing! But somehow this discussion keeps getting pointed to, "Why not have some beauty in life", which is not the root of the issue at all.

The root of the issue for the School Boards is one of classroom time and, more importantly, funding. Period.

The root of the issue from a purely aesthetic/artistic perspective would have to be, why is cursive more important than beadwork or music theory? Both of which offer as much to the excercise of the mind, but are not mandatorily taught to our children in public schools.

~Thadeus
 
==> why is cursive more important than beadwork or music theory?
But neither beadwork nor music theory offer anything to enhance personal relationships, which in this age of technology, in my opinion, need more attention.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Where is the time going? When I was in school, my teachers found the time to teach grammar, spelling, how to print and later how to write (as cursive and printing were separated), and even neat things like math, history, and the enforced torture called "gym class". All that in just a few years! Later it was expanded to include things such as home economics, wood shop, drafting, sports team management and all sorts of electives that kept me out of proper classes.

Has teaching gotten harder, the students and teachers dumber, or have the school systems gotten too demanding with the teacher's time? Is more time spent on administrative and school board issues than actually teaching?

Figuring out the problems with our education system is one thing, but to not have time teaching children something that has been taught for who-knows-how-long makes you wonder what else they deem "not important enough to teach".
 
Very intersting thoughts folks...man, I love this forum!

Since I originally posted, I have found that my son's school is not teaching the kindergarteners "true" cursive. It is a style called "D'Nealian Manuscript," and apparently it's all the rage in teaching children to write. A quick Google found these:

Six Questions Educators Should Ask before Choosing a Handwriting Program

(the apostrophe in this link messes up the TGML)

D'Nealian Manuscript

The school district says it's not cursive, but it's pretty close. My problem is not that they are teaching cursive, but that it is being taught in kindergarten. I agree with Santa Mufasa, that there are many things that one may rarely or never "use," but it is still good to know them. In the words of Robert Heinlein:

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson
 
Dollie said:
Where is the time going? When I was in school, my teachers found the time to teach grammar, spelling, how to print and later how to write (as cursive and printing were separated), and even neat things like math, history, and the enforced torture called "gym class".

...


Has teaching gotten harder, the students and teachers dumber, or have the school systems gotten too demanding with the teacher's time? Is more time spent on administrative and school board issues than actually teaching?

In America, the problem is (I believe) the misguided No Child Left a Dime...er, I mean the No Child Left Behind program, with its emphasis on test scores as a measure of students' learning. This has spawned "teaching to the test," which means that if it's not on the test, then a particular subject will be given less time - or skipped entirely - in favor of those subjects that are on the test. What we will end up with is a generation of students who can take standardized, multiple-guess, fill-in-the-bubbles tests but who can't reason or think creatively (because that's not part of the test).

Here's an essay from a recent Newsweek that illustrates this quite nicely:

We All Have a Lot to Learn
Singapore's students do brilliantly in math and science tests. American kids test much worse but do better in the real world. Why?


I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson
 
On the new United States nickel, the word 'Liberty' is written in cursive.
That's in Jefferson's own handwriting.

I've gotten a few in my change recently - I like the buffalo on the reverse a lot. Sadly, they're going back to Monticello on the reverse in 2006.

I think it's important to expose the kids to cursive, if for no better reason than to help them create their own signature that they'll use for their adult life.

Chip H.


____________________________________________________________________
Donate to Katrina relief:
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I guess you can class cursive writing with the rest of the "arts" since school systems, when looking for something to cut, will always cut the arts first, especially if it's the sports teams that want/need more money. Maybe one kid in 10,000 will go on to play pro sports, while maybe 3 or 4 in 10 will use the arts in one form or another in their daily lives.

I agree with jebenson about "No child's left behind" (as opposed to the right one ;-)) being a big part of it. Both my kids were in the "gifted and talented" program in their schools. Their teacher is an award-winning educator. She had to fight tooth and nail (mostly against the athletic department) to keep the program going, and spent a lot of her own time (and money for supplies) helping the brighter students achieve closer to their talent level instead of being bored silly waiting for the slow kids to stop disrupting class and learn at least the basics. Sadly, the program was eventually cut completely - at least my kids graduated first - and the teacher left the school district.

The boost-the-self-esteem-nobody-is-better-at-anything way of thinking is also a big part of the problem. Kids aren't allowed to excel because some other kid's precious little ego might be bruised, and the troublemakers aren't yanked up short and either made to behave or made to leave. The brats know they can get away with anything because their parents will sue in a heartbeat if little Johnny is made to sit in a corner because he set fire to the classroom (again) or stabbed the teacher. Meanwhile, the bright kids (even the mediocre ones) are cheated, and the slow ones don't get as much attention as they deserve.

Is cursive necessary? Probably not. Just because "we've always done it this way" isn't a good justification - does anyone think not being required to take Latin will lead to the end of civilization?

Is cursive useful? Sure, but so is beadworking. I have to admit I use cursive infequently (other than my signature) because everything is email or word processor, but I'm not a bit sorry I know how if/when I need it.

I class cursive in the same category as being able to make change without a calculator - you're going to get cheated if you can't do it. How many times have you seen a teenager get confused because you gave him $10.04 for a $9.79 charge and had to explain you wanted a quarter back? Is that signature written in block caps "legal"? I don't know, but I doubt I'd take a check from someone who printed their name.
 
What's wrong with asthectics?

Cursive writing in far more personal and intimate. In this day and age, where technology is so pervasive, tools that enhance personal relationships have to be beneficial.
I have nothing against aesthetics. But if the goal of cursive is aesthetics, why didn't schools teach calligraphy as a matter of course?

I have seen nothing that tells me that the purpose of cursive writing was beauty. I found only one website that opined why one should learn cursive, and the reason given was speed of writing.

Don't get me wrong. Aesthetics can enter into it -- but aesthetics can enter into nearly anything. Just look at the Apache helicopter.







Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!

TANSTAAFL!!
 
Sleipnir,

No question about it...the functional need for a command/knowledge of "cursive" per se is now (due largely to the advent of the Electronic Age)virtually non-existent.

Resultingly, I also agree that the time/money emphases that schools presently place upon cursive "skills" arguably represent a poor return on (education $) investment.

Summing up my thoughts: If I was a school-board member and I received from a parent (or group thereof) a proposal to re-allocate classroom resources away from its current emphases on "cursive" (or D'Nealian), I would be very willing to consider their ideas, despite my personal love for good penmanship/calligraphy.

This is not to say, however, that I'd be willing to sacrifice children's literacy, which, I believe, includes (significantly) the skill/ability to write (in some form) sans electricity.[wink]

[santa]Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[ Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.
 
I am of many minds on this.

On the one side is my own experience. I was told at the age of 6 by a public school teacher that being left-handed was in an of itself a sign of being damned to hell -- probably that whole "sinister" thing. At 9, I was forced to write right-handed in class, regardless of my actual handedness, all while the teacher was gaving me failing marks in penmanship.

Then there's my daughter, who is in second grade GT and is teaching herself cursive under my supervision.

Then there is my autistic son, who has fine-motor-control problems enough that in class he is allowed to use one of those label-tape printers.



By take is pretty straightforward. I don't know what the purpose of cursive is. [An addendum: My father, who's old enough to have actually dipped a girl's ponytail in an inkwell (though he says for best results you have to bring the ink to the hair, not the other way around), says cursive is used to manage ink flow on cheap paper when dealing with dipped pens.]

If the purpose of cursive is aesthetic, then teach kids calligraphy. If you think your honey would like to get a hand-written love letter, then imagine his/her reaction to getting a love-letter that's also a work of art.

If the purose of cursive is speed, then teach everyone a standard form of shorthand.

Want the best answers? Ask the best questions!

TANSTAAFL!!
 
IMO, content, not style, is all important.

I would rather receive a letter from my wife stating, "Darling, you are the love of my life" mashed into the paper with crayon than, "Hey asshole, when are you going to take out the trash?" in beautiful cursive or calligraphic script.

[Cheers]
 
What exactly are we teaching kids in school these days? My daughter will start kindergarten next year. Add script to the list of things going by the wayside- physical education, art, music, library services, supplies for the teachers... All are being cut. And for what? It is not as if our kids are excelling in math and science. History? I'm not impressed with what our kids learn or retain. So with all of these programs being cut, what exactly are they learning?

Off that rant. The lack of script won't kill our kids. But do we teach them to use a keyboard instead? Ahhhhh. Good plan. Eventually they won't even know how to use a pen. It is bad enough that adults have a tough time with basic spelling and grammar. Email and computer world abbreviations seem to have a significant effect on communication. Pretty soon, people won't even know how to write their names- without a keyboard.

As a society we put our kids in front of television for way too many hours of the day. Throw in video games, email, and teaching kids to use a mouse instead of a pen or crayons? What do we expect? Again, parents have become selfish. Which leads to our schools. For the parents who are involved, congratulations.

Back to handwriting... It just seems that while cursive isn't essential, what is? Kids, in my humble opinion, can acquire dexterity and control with a little cursive. They will be able to write a little faster then block letters (most, not all- there are the finger peck typists that do extremely well too!) Yes, they can even sign their name. Perhaps they should just use the old "X."

I just find it sad that some basic tools of education are being tossed due to budget cuts. Not that budgets aren't a reality. But I have pity for the teachers who have to deal with program cutting instead of teaching. Why should teachers have to babysit our kids instead of teach them at least the basics (sorry- that is really a different discussion).

The teacher in the article..."I have kids who make letters in very creative ways," she said. That's great. But why not instill some basics in them first, then teach them to go out and be creative.

I'm done. I've tired myself out with this little tirade. I think I'll go home now, have dinner, read to my daughter and watch her brain absorb and develop.

Nick
 
Cor,

Agreed, but missing the point, I believe: Given the same intended message from your wife, "Darling, you are the love of my life," would you rather that she delivered the message:

1) Typed in Times-Roman in 4.8 seconds (at 100 wpm)
2) Mashed in 5 colours of Crayola (regardless of speed)
3) Prepared in calligraphy (in 45 seconds)

...I believe I know your preference would be version #3 (unless, of course, version #1 or #2 had the P.S. "Meet me in the bedroom, I'm wearing only whipped cream.[ponytails2]", at which point version #3 is out of the competition...Remember, "the Media is the Message."[wink])

[santa]Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[ Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.
 
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