Apostrophe Catastrophe 1

[AnotherHiggins]

I do.

[tt][blue]-John[/blue][/tt]
[tab][red]The plural of anecdote is not data[/red]

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[LeeMcCauslin]

jebenson (TechnicalUser) 3 Feb 09 9:39

Yes, it was a stupid mistake
I noticed it immediately after I clicked the Submit Post button. I has it as "it's" but I wanted to change it to "it is". I took out the apostrophe and got distracted by something, then forgot to finish the change.

There's nothing quite so embarrassing as making a punctuation mistake in a poem about punctuation!

I really, really, really wish this site had an edit post function

lol! If it makes you feel any better, I was sure you did it intentionally to illustrate the point.

=======================================
"Dyin'? Boy, He can have this little life any time He wants to. Do Ya hear that? Are ya hearin' it? Come on. You're welcome to it, Ol' Timer. Let me know You're up there. Come on. Love me, hate me, kill me, anything. Just let me know it... I'm just standin' in the rain talkin' to myself." Cool Hand Luke

 

[rosieb]

CC - actually, as LLPG Custodian, I do. Well, I think I do - legally,it's all a bit of a mess - there's no over-arching legislation in the UK, so it's all interpretation of a variety of legislative instruments.

Mike - OMG, someone who knows about BS7666, now that's scary! I think you'll find that there is only one official "street" in the NLPG with an apostraphe, it's a St James's something or other. Data acceptance to the NLPG excludes punctuation, most LLPG software won't allow it at the data entry point. I have St. Helen's Street, but it isn't really worth the fight.

The punctuation may not be relevant in the more recent software used by the emergency services, but they do like it.

Oh, and IDe&A is only interested in shafting the Royal Mail in terms of selling address data. Which is only right and correct, when RM can somehow charge councils for using data which they create!

Rosie
"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." Richard Feynman

 

[strongm]

 

[rosieb]

Rosie
"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." Richard Feynman

 

[rosieb]

Seriously though Mike, how come you know about this?

Rosie
"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." Richard Feynman

 

[strongm]

Research. Although it may not always be apparant, I don't often like to get into on-line discussions without making mayself vaguely aware of at least a few of the facts or background material available. And it is often educational.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Legal and legislative issues not withstanding, I understand your position rosie. What I think is interesting is that you're approaching this from the perspective of removing punctuation; whereas, I'm suggesting that is a matter of changing the spelling.

The question revolves around whether or not an apostrophe, which is fully embedded within a proper noun, can or should be treated any differently than any other letter or capitalization within the proper name. That certainly looks like the intent of that portion of the BS 7666 referenced by strongm above.

"Abbreviations and punctuation should not be used unless they appear in the designated name (e.g. 'Earl's Court Road').

That sounds to me like abbreviations and punctuation embedded in a proper noun should remain.

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[rosieb]

CC - My approach is one of standardisation and, to be honest, of pracicality. The systems which have been accredited for supply of BS7666 data will reject punctuation as part of their business rules.

If I thought I had a street which was a special case, I could fight it, but I'd have to fight it at every occasion I made a change to the details of a property on that street.

The NLPG is gradually being recognised as the authoritative UK gazetteer, some of the systems which use it may be able to handle punctuation, others cannot.

As I see it, an official address has a purpose, which is to uniquely identify a property. This may be for the emergency services, for the mail, or for online purchases. The important thing is that it identifies the property. Ultimately, properties won't have an address for identification - they'll just use a UPRN.

The simple fact is that people generally get fussed about their address because they think it affects the value of their house. A housename is seen as more upmarket than a street number, St Helen's Street is seen as more upmarket than St Helens Street. And names change over time...







Rosie
"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." Richard Feynman

 

[KenCunningham]

So 221b Baker Street will become just another UPRN? Have these people no soul?

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[rosieb]

No! We have not, we are minions of the dark side, our aim is to destroy the pleasure you have in your individuality.

My greatest wish is to be able to reject house names on the grounds of inappropriateness/taste - Minas Tirith on a c19 mid-terrace, Tara (one of our most popular) on a 70's estate, Rose Cottage on a 90'semi, Map...m Lodge on a brand new house nowhere near the original Manor House.

Oh yes, and the pillock whose house lies between nos 13 and 17 and insists his is not no 15 - because it's got a plate saying St Fred's House!

Rosie
"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." Richard Feynman

 

[strongm]

>The systems which have been accredited for supply of BS7666 data will reject punctuation as part of their business rules

Which, of course, is just because it is easier for the implementation, not because the standard calls for it. But then, as Christopher Roper, in an official memorandum to the Select Committee on Transport, Local Government and the Regions back in 20021 said:

All kinds of data (including the NLPG) claim BS7666 compliance, but it is gradually dawning that this standard can be applied in a variety of different ways, and says nothing about the consistency, currency or completeness of the dataset. All it guarantees is the structure of each record

What he didn't foresee was that a limited interpretation of the structure would then become the de facto

It's a bit like deciding we want a database that is to store real numbers. Except we all know that it is difficult to store real numbers accurately on a computer, so a decision is made to only store integers (every integer is a real number, so from a standards point of view that's ok). Only now we turn things around and use that limitation, perhaps by ensuring that no system that interfaces with the database can accept anything except integers (and possibly helped by legislation), to dictate that the only real real numbers are integers.

I'm looking forward to the day that, when someone asks where I live, I reply "Oh, 100023336956" which is of course the logical extension of where the NLPG is going ...

(I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out to which address the UPRN above actually refers)


>The NLPG is gradually being recognised as the authoritative UK gazetteer

Certainly Intelligent Addressing's propoganda would have you believe that ... but I'd counter that the Ordinance Survey's* Address-Point and the Royal Mail's PAF are rather popular. And both allow apostrophes; sadly the number is dwindling because, as local government arbitarily removes them from old addresses Address-Point and PAF are obliged to follow suit since, as Rosie has said, thanks to an Act of Parliament, local government is the authoratitive arbiter of address names.


*As far as I can tell from my reading Ordinance Survey and Intelligent Addressing loathe each other ...

 

[wahnula]

Talk about misunderstood...my last name (L'Abbate, Italian} contains an apostrophe...and many computer systems can't process an apostrophe. Many, many people don't have a clue how to deal with pronouncing it either. You can imagine what I've gone through growing up. Lah-uh-BAIT is the usual, but I also get lah-a-BOT-tay and lah-BAIT-ee. Correct pronunciation is Lah -BOTT or, Italian style, Luh-BOTT-tay. It means "of the Abbot"

I admit that many times I abbreviate it to Labbate, to simplify things. but that's *not* my name. I'm proud of my heritage and family name and at this point Ill put up with it.

So, as you can see, I'm attached to he apostrophe in a unique way.

Tony

Users helping Users...

 

[rosieb]

As far as I can tell from my reading Ordinance Survey and Intelligent Addressing loathe each other

Oh they do, but not as much as OS/Royal Mail and ID&EA loathe each other.

Local Authorities create addresses, but because we can't prove we've never even looked at the RM database to clean up our data and create our gazetteer (except for one council, who can) we have to pay RM a fee for every on-line use of our address data. Something to do with them being data aggregators, if we've used just one address from them, they own our data - ergo 'tis a case of who can charge for what address data. It's simply a fight over money!

ID&EA manage - for a fee - the MSA (Mapping Services Agreement) which currently covers the supply of RM data to councils, amongst other things.

IA are selling the NLPG, RM take a royalty for their notional ownership of a large proportion of the data, which (I think) comes out of ID&EA fees.

It all comes down to the money.


Rosie
"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." Richard Feynman