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to apostrophe or not to apostrophe 2
- Thread starter jakeyg
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WOW--this has really gotten good! Language doesn't really irritate me until someone who should know better or wants people to consider them "educated" makes an error that immediately alerts me to their lack of refinement. One example, in written communication, is "alot." Another one is "their" for "they're", also VERY common. "Of" instead of "have", as in "should HAVE" is accepted now as well. And "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less" just irritates me. But the thing that will set my teeth spinning in their sockets is "irregardless.
Stella740pl
Programmer
how do you split an infinitive...
Oh, that's easy.
And here is about an obligatorily split infinitive:
Oh, that's easy.
And here is about an obligatorily split infinitive:
As Stella's first link pointed out, the split infinitive "rule" is a holdover from Latin, whereas English is mainly a Germanic language.
We must be prepared to better equip our students to meet the grammatical challenges they face in today's world.
"To equip better" sounds awkward.
Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!
We must be prepared to better equip our students to meet the grammatical challenges they face in today's world.
"To equip better" sounds awkward.
Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!
SantaMufasa
Technical User
To easily see how to erroneously split two infinitives, just look at this sentence. ![[smile]](/data/assets/smilies/smile.gif "[smile] [smile]")
![[santa]](/data/assets/smilies/santa.gif "[santa] [santa]")
Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[ Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.
Mufasa(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[ Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.
People who are grammatically-challenged don't notice the errors nearly as much as those who are gramatically-educated. For someone who has been systematically drilled in proper speaking, listening to someone speak very badly is distracting from their own message. Reading badly written stuff is distracting as well. I end up either tuning it out or casting it aside and hoping it's something I can live without.
sbudzynski
Technical User
hoping it's someting I can live without."
Either we choose to live without this post, or cast it aside because it ends with a preposition?
Honestly, your minor mistake did not take away from your message nor did it distract me from my own. Then again, I don't know many who have been systematically drilled in proper speaking. I definitely, have not been drilled. Atleast not yet!
But getting bothered by errors does seem to create much unnecessary distraction. "Irregardless", I have tried to look past getting bothered by less (then/than) perfect grammar because I make too many mistakes myself.
But I shall study, and become a perfect writer! Once that day comes, all those who make grammatical mistakes shall feel my spell/grammar checking wrath.
PS (whoever follows this post and corrects my grammar, I would like to thank you in advance!)
Steve Budzynski
Metro Office Products Inc
Either we choose to live without this post, or cast it aside because it ends with a preposition?
Honestly, your minor mistake did not take away from your message nor did it distract me from my own. Then again, I don't know many who have been systematically drilled in proper speaking. I definitely, have not been drilled. Atleast not yet!
But getting bothered by errors does seem to create much unnecessary distraction. "Irregardless", I have tried to look past getting bothered by less (then/than) perfect grammar because I make too many mistakes myself.
But I shall study, and become a perfect writer! Once that day comes, all those who make grammatical mistakes shall feel my spell/grammar checking wrath.
PS (whoever follows this post and corrects my grammar, I would like to thank you in advance!)
Steve Budzynski
Metro Office Products Inc
Good heavens, such passion. 
Santa, I don't see that Elanor has "explained" this at all, let alone intended to. Furthermore, you don't really back up your argument at all. Why is it "bad"? The Germans do it all the time; are they less "literate" than we are? Where is the practical reason not to do this in English, that wouldn't apply equally to German?
Furthermore, you fail to demonstrate that the practice is always practical. If you wish to do so, please reword my sentence to fall in line with your rule, as I invited Mr. Budzynski to do. For reference, the sentence is "What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"
As for splitting of infinitives: the splitting of infinitives gives a different flavor of emphasis. Why should a spice that is in the cabinet be unavailable?
Bob
Santa, I don't see that Elanor has "explained" this at all, let alone intended to. Furthermore, you don't really back up your argument at all. Why is it "bad"? The Germans do it all the time; are they less "literate" than we are? Where is the practical reason not to do this in English, that wouldn't apply equally to German?
Furthermore, you fail to demonstrate that the practice is always practical. If you wish to do so, please reword my sentence to fall in line with your rule, as I invited Mr. Budzynski to do. For reference, the sentence is "What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"
As for splitting of infinitives: the splitting of infinitives gives a different flavor of emphasis. Why should a spice that is in the cabinet be unavailable?
Bob
Stella740pl
Programmer
BobRodes,
Don't you think SantaMufasa was joking?
It definitely looked like that to me, as he deliberately split infinitives and ended his sentence with a preposition - and a wink.
sbudzynski
Technical User
I must have missed that but I will try to reword your sentence.
"What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"
I didn't want to be read to out of this book, so please tell me what reason you have for bringing up such an unwanted peice of literature?
Steve Budzynski
Metro Office Products Inc
"What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"
I didn't want to be read to out of this book, so please tell me what reason you have for bringing up such an unwanted peice of literature?
Steve Budzynski
Metro Office Products Inc
Stella740pl
Programmer
"What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?" - could have been said by a child (and anecdotally, it was).
So who would possibly be the speaker questioning the "reasons" for bringing an "unwanted piece of literature"?
A child could have said,
"I don't want to be read to out of this book; why did you bring it?"
If you also were taught to avoid passive voice, here are some versions for you.
"Why did you bring this book? I don't like it."
"I don't want you to read to me out of this book; why did you bring it?"
But personally, I am all for passive voice, split infinitives, and prepositions at the end of sentences (just not as many at once as in the example) where appropriate and changes a flavor of meaning, changes emphasis, or adds elegance to the phrase. I agree with the notion "Why should a spice that is in the cabinet be unavailable?"
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I think this may be a good time to bring up phrasal verbs. I can make a case that BobRodes's sentence doesn't actually end with a preposition, but rather, ends with a phrasal verb.
Good Luck
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Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
chipperMDW
Programmer
This question isn't really a question?
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This is all a bit much for me. When the English that sounds right is wrong and how it is wrong eludes me
Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on correcting peoples more obvious (i.e. I can see them) mistakes like yanqui's examples (apostrophe in there or not ??? ;-)
"alot"
"their" for "they're"
"Of" instead of "have"
"could care less" instead of "couldn't care less"
and if we can ban the phrase "I'm a quick study" from the universe I'ld be grateful as it doesn't mean "I learn quick" it means....well....who knows
And what are the gramatical rules for using "till" instead of "until"?
It's true, there are more questions than answers
Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on correcting peoples more obvious (i.e. I can see them) mistakes like yanqui's examples (apostrophe in there or not ??? ;-)
"alot"
"their" for "they're"
"Of" instead of "have"
"could care less" instead of "couldn't care less"
and if we can ban the phrase "I'm a quick study" from the universe I'ld be grateful as it doesn't mean "I learn quick" it means....well....who knows
And what are the gramatical rules for using "till" instead of "until"?
It's true, there are more questions than answers
craigsboyd
IS-IT--Management
In looking for information on split infinitives I found someone that posted something like following...
To go, boldly, where no man has gone before.
Boldly to go where no man has gone before.
...that doesn't hardly seem right. But then, I still can't get my mind wrapped around diagramming "What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?".
SweetPotato Software Website
My Blog
To go, boldly, where no man has gone before.
Boldly to go where no man has gone before.
...that doesn't hardly seem right. But then, I still can't get my mind wrapped around diagramming "What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?".
SweetPotato Software Website
My Blog
CajunCenturion
Programmer
A phrasal verb is one in which a preposition is added to a base verb to change the meaning of the verb. The effect is that the preposition is acting like an adverb and not a preposition. Sentences (questions) which end with such constructs are not really ending with a preposition, but are ending with a phrasal verb.
I was wrong to think that your question ends with a phrasal verb because I first, thinking thinking about a reworked version of the question which does end in a phrasal verb, and second, working to un-split the existing phrasal verb.
Why did you bring up the book that I didn't want to be read from?
This question ends in the phrasal verb 'to read from'. The verb 'to read' and the phrasal verb 'to read from' don't mean the same thing, and it's the preposition 'from' that phrases the verb 'to read' into the new meaning.
Here are the steps that I used to get from your original question to that one.
What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?
[li]Bring the ending preposition back to its object[/li]For what did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up?
[li]Bring the phrasal verb 'bring up' (to bring vs. to bring up) together since it's horribly split in the original.[/li]For what did you bring up the book I didn't want to be read to out of?
[li]Replace 'For what' with 'why'.[/li]Why did you bring up the book that I didn't want to be read to out of?
[li]Replace 'read to out of' with 'read from'.[/li]Why did you bring up the book that I didn't want to be read from?
Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I was wrong to think that your question ends with a phrasal verb because I first, thinking thinking about a reworked version of the question which does end in a phrasal verb, and second, working to un-split the existing phrasal verb.
Why did you bring up the book that I didn't want to be read from?
This question ends in the phrasal verb 'to read from'. The verb 'to read' and the phrasal verb 'to read from' don't mean the same thing, and it's the preposition 'from' that phrases the verb 'to read' into the new meaning.
Here are the steps that I used to get from your original question to that one.
What did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?
[li]Bring the ending preposition back to its object[/li]For what did you bring the book I didn't want to be read to out of up?
[li]Bring the phrasal verb 'bring up' (to bring vs. to bring up) together since it's horribly split in the original.[/li]For what did you bring up the book I didn't want to be read to out of?
[li]Replace 'For what' with 'why'.[/li]Why did you bring up the book that I didn't want to be read to out of?
[li]Replace 'read to out of' with 'read from'.[/li]Why did you bring up the book that I didn't want to be read from?
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Interesting, Cajun, and thanks for explaining. You know, it seems to me, that by your definition, "to" could be analyzed as a phrasal verb when used in the sense of "read to", since it clarifies the meaning of "read" to include the idea of reading aloud to someone else. Perhaps one could make the same case for "out of", but that's harder, since it seems to relate the idea of a book and the idea of reading from it.
However, I don't buy your substitutions of "why" and "from" for "what for" and "out of". That suggests that the latter are inherently incorrect, since you substitute for them. To me, that implies that one must also refrain from saying "For what did you do that?" and "He read out of a book," and such a proscription would be pedantic as I'm sure you agree. Not to mention the fact that "from" is also a preposition, and you're ending the sentence with it, so what have we gained from the substitution? No, I think we ought to be allowed to say "what for" and "out of" with impunity, not changing them to suit the dictates of a grammatical rule. If a rule disallows a word, then it prevents a user from conveying subtleties and shading through that word, and I submit that in that case the rule is suspect rather than the word.
Furthermore, dropping the word "to" seems wrong, since it doesn't specify me in a dative (can't remember the term for the type of subordinate clause that has to or for in it). Your solution suggests that it's correct to say "He read me from a book" instead of "He read to me from a book" and I can't agree with that. So, I don't think we can drop the word "to" here.
So, maybe "For what did you bring up the book, out of which I didn't want to be read to?" where "to" is a "phrasal verb".
Still seems stilted to me, even if you do substitute "why" for "for what".
Perhaps the convention has become archaic.
Bob
However, I don't buy your substitutions of "why" and "from" for "what for" and "out of". That suggests that the latter are inherently incorrect, since you substitute for them. To me, that implies that one must also refrain from saying "For what did you do that?" and "He read out of a book," and such a proscription would be pedantic as I'm sure you agree. Not to mention the fact that "from" is also a preposition, and you're ending the sentence with it, so what have we gained from the substitution? No, I think we ought to be allowed to say "what for" and "out of" with impunity, not changing them to suit the dictates of a grammatical rule. If a rule disallows a word, then it prevents a user from conveying subtleties and shading through that word, and I submit that in that case the rule is suspect rather than the word.
Furthermore, dropping the word "to" seems wrong, since it doesn't specify me in a dative (can't remember the term for the type of subordinate clause that has to or for in it). Your solution suggests that it's correct to say "He read me from a book" instead of "He read to me from a book" and I can't agree with that. So, I don't think we can drop the word "to" here.
So, maybe "For what did you bring up the book, out of which I didn't want to be read to?" where "to" is a "phrasal verb".
Still seems stilted to me, even if you do substitute "why" for "for what".
Perhaps the convention has become archaic.
Bob
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