Apostrophe Catastrophe 1

[CajunCenturion]

Its a catastrophe for the apostrophe in Britain

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[vb5prgrmr]

laughs, giggles, walks away shaking head

 

[GSCaupling]

My goodn[blue]'[/blue]ess... the potholes must all be filled if apostrophes are next on the agenda.

GS

[small][navy]**********************^*********************
I always know where people are going to sit. I'm chairvoyant.[/navy][/small]

 

[jebenson]

I think that I shall never see
punctuation so abused as the apostrophe.
It's used quite wrongly the plural to show,
then left off when showing possession, oh no!
Its used in contractions and that's no joke,
so its you're not your for you are, all you blokes.

So use your apstrophes and do so quite proudly!
Protest them being banned from street signs, quite loudly!
Sing out your praise for all to see
for the poor, forgotten apostrophe.


I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day!

 

[rosieb]

Move along now, nothing happening here...

[Warning! Boring Facts]

Actually, pretty much most councils in England and Wales have been doing this for a couple of years, ever since the introduction of the NLPG (National Land and Property Gazetteer) - the standardised national address database.

One of the standards is the removal of punctuation, it makes searching much easier - if you've called an ambulance, you might be a tad upset if it couldn't find your address because someone omitted an apostrophe.

Most councils haven't made a big deal out of it, they just replace the signs as they need renewing - but the official addresses in the database do not contain the punctuation.

(I'm not sure about Scotland and NI - I know there are some different rules for Scotland, and I've no idea about NI.)

[PS I'm the Local Land and Property Gazetteer Custodian for a local authority (ie the person who decides what local data goes into the NLPG) so I get distinctly pigged off by these kind of reports.

The people who object are usually those who want house names instead of street numbers, because they think it makes their property sound more exclusive ie valuable.]


Rosie
"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." Richard Feynman

 

[KornGeek]

I was actually planning to start an apostrophe thread, but I'll briefly hijack this one instead.

I saw a van the other day that advertised a variety of baby-proofing services for the home. They advertised that they set up baby gates, cabinet latches, baby monitors, and "nanny cam's".

Now, using an apostrophe when the intention is to make something plural grates on my nerves like nails on a chalkboard. However, as I thought about it, I remembered that the apostrophe, in addition to signifying posession, can be used to indicate missing letters("can't", "aren't", "li'l", etc.). In this case, the last part of "camera" has been removed.

What are your thoughts on this? Was "cam's" grammatically correct or incorrect in this instance?

 

[2ffat]

IMHO, Cam's sounds more like it is possessive. Cams (short for cameras) is common enough that it shouldn't have an apostrophe. Can't, aren't, shouldn't are contractions so they need it. Words like li'l are more of a slang, like saying, "Good ol' Bob." Cams is not.


James P. Cottingham
[sup]I'm number 1,229!
I'm number 1,229![/sup]

 

[AnotherHiggins]

I think that "Nanny Cam" is an industry and publicly recognized term. "Nanny Camera," while it makes sense as a phrase, is not really accepted as a single term.

So I think that the sign might be correct using the logic you presented. But I'd be willing to bet that the writer didn't intend it that way.

[tt][blue]-John[/blue][/tt]
[tab][red]The plural of anecdote is not data[/red]

Help us help you. Please read FAQ 181-2886 before posting.

 

[vanka25]

One of the standards is the removal of punctuation, it makes searching much easier - if you've called an ambulance, you might be a tad upset if it couldn't find your address because someone omitted an apostrophe.

This would make a compelling case but the article goes on to say:

Mullaney claimed apostrophes confuse GPS units, including those used by emergency services. But Jenny Hodge, a spokeswoman for satellite navigation equipment manufacturer TomTom, said most users of their systems navigate through Britain's sometime confusing streets by entering a postal code rather than a street address.

She said that if someone preferred to use a street name — with or without an apostrophe — punctuation wouldn't be an issue. By the time the first few letters of the street were entered, a list of matching choices would pop up and the user would choose the destination.

A test by The Associated Press backed this up. In a search for London street St. Mary's Road, the name popped up before the apostrophe had to be entered.

So it doesn't appear that the presence of apostrophes or other punctuation interferes with navigation; so the question remains of why is there a need to remove punctuation.

From what I see, there is no compelling reason to remove it, especially when its removal obscures history. Take the example presented in the article: "Kings Heath". When the apostrophe is included ("King's Heath") it is clear that this tract of land at one point belonged to a monarch or a succession of monarchs; while without it there is at best ambiguity and at worst the history is forgotten. History is full of examples in which the corruption of a name obscures the history of a place/person/event; but this is the first time that I know of in which there is a concerted effort to do so while being hailed as a "good thing".

Another example in the article appears in the photo headlining it. In the photo a sign is visible which reads: "St Pauls Square"; this makes no sense - it does not convey the meaning that was intended and is confusing. Was there a saint named Pauls? If so why is the word "Square" tacked on at the end? Maybe he was an early proponent of hyphenated names ("Pauls-Square") and the hyphen got left out? But when the apostrophe is included we can quite easily deduce that the square was dedicated to St Paul.

 

[GSCaupling]

I don't think nanny cams should have an apostrophe. Cam is short for camera, and both simply take an "s" for the plural.

Vanka25: Your mention of St. Pauls rang a bell- North Carolina has one. See [blue]

http://www.stpaulsnc.gov/history.htm

[/blue]

I don't know if they have a town square, but if they do I can image it rightly being called St. Pauls Square.

GS

[small][navy]**********************^*********************
I always know where people are going to sit. I'm chairvoyant.[/navy][/small]

 

[addy]

Its used in contractions and that's no joke

Am I the only one to notice the mistake here?

Or was it deliberate?

Or is it correct and I need to admit to a lack of understanding of the apostrophe?

 

[p5wizard]

> Its used...

Methinks 'tisn't correct... ;-)

p5

 

[jebenson]

Yes, it was a stupid mistake
I noticed it immediately after I clicked the Submit Post button. I has it as "it's" but I wanted to change it to "it is". I took out the apostrophe and got distracted by something, then forgot to finish the change.

There's nothing quite so embarrassing as making a punctuation mistake in a poem about punctuation!

I really, really, really wish this site had an edit post function.



I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day!

 

[audiopro]

So they have been dropped because they are old fashioned. Seems to me that the use of capital letters and correct spelling have also become old fashioned in modern society. There are those who will argue that it is not necessary to be accurate all the time but once the standards start to slip, they have a habit of continuing to get worse.

get a job in it != Get a job in I.T.

Keith

http://www.studiosoft.co.uk

 

[2ffat]

<off-topic>

I took out the apostrophe and got distracted by something, then forgot to finish the change.

Reminds me when I was a DJ and was listening to a fellow DJ who couldn't decide whether to say, "Let's take a look out the Window and see what the weather is like" or, "Let's take a peek out the Window and see what the weather is like." It came out, "Let's take a leak out the Window and see what the weather is like."
</off-topic>


James P. Cottingham
[sup]I'm number 1,229!
I'm number 1,229![/sup]

 

[strongm]

>One of the standards is the removal of punctuation

Doesn't make it right, though. And is an implementation detail that clearly exceeds the requirements of BS 7666, which states "Abbreviations and punctuation should not be used unless they appear in the designated name (e.g. ‘Earl’s Court Road’).

It is also interesting to note that the LLPG and SNN data entry conventions and best practice for the NLPG v2.0 guidance on removing punctuation specifically states that it applies only to new addresses, not to those that already exist. And given that the guidance to LLPG Custodians that new street names should not end in “s” where it can be construed as either a possessive or plural, such removal of apostrophes in new addresses shouldn't upset anyone, since there won't be any apostrophes to remove! And that would be fair enough. However, presumably some committee decided that this guidance was not suitably draconian enough and for no convincingly good reason extended it to all addresses, new and old.

Personally, I rather think that allowing the format of a database to dictate and justify changes to existing real-world spellings is somewhat presumptious.

Also, given that ultimately the NLPG is owned by I&DeA, I find it ironic that I&DeA's own website, as part of it's plain English campaign for local government, says "Don't be frightened of using the possessive apostrophe", implies that those who "tell you that it's had its day" are wrong and clearly and unconditionally states that "apostrophes are still important

 

[flapeyre]

It's creeping grammatical laziness. The corporate world (it's Walgreens, but really should be Walgreen's, because the founder's name did not have an s at the end).

I cringe when I see a mailbox with "The Smith's" or even "The Jone's" (yikes!)

Pluralization of proper names is one of the simplest grammatical rules in English. Just add "-s", unless the name ends in "-s" or "-x", in which case, you add "-es" (The Joneses, The Marxes).

<aside>
Goggle Toolbar's spell checker wanted to change "Marxes" to "Marx's", among other non sequiturs, such as "Marx es". I despair.
</aside>

-- Francis
I'd like to change the world, but I can't find the source code.

 

[GSCaupling]

...but if they do I can image it rightly being called...

I meant "imagine," of course, but it was a cumbersome sentence regardless.

jebenson - don't sweat the apostrophe. Heck, I thought your poem was star-worthy!

Besides, there's been at least one apostrophe error in the replies since then...

GS

[small][navy]**********************^*********************
I always know where people are going to sit. I'm chairvoyant.[/navy][/small]

 

[ChrisHunt]

Many apostrophic goings on here:

http://www.apostropheabuse.com/

Misuse (and/or omission) of apostrophes does grate with me. I particularly (dis)like mixed cases like "we sell cat's, dog's and rabbits". What byzantine rule is operating in the head of somebody who'd write a notice like that? Something more complex than the actual apostrophe usage rules, that's for sure.

However, when it comes to road and place names, I'm with Birmingham, Rosie and (apparently) the NLPG. I don't think possessive apostrophes are appropriate in proper names. Where do you stop? If King's Heath, why not King'ston? Did the heath belong to just one King? Kings' Heath might be more appropriate. Leave them all out, I say.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[CajunCenturion]

Who among us has the &quot;authority&quot; to change the spelling of a proper noun other than our own name?

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