Anti-Trust 6

Alt255 · Apr 4, 2000

Microsoft's anti-competitive actions trammeled the competitive process through which the computer software industry generally stimulates innovation and conduces to the optimum benefit of consumers."     U.S. District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson This is a sad way to begin a new forum. I hope there are members of the Tek-Tips community who can stand up and defend the actions of the man who asked "Where do you want to go today?" Without a doubt, Bill Gates heralded a revolution in the way we work. Has he helped us all? Has he only helped himself? I have mixed feelings and would appreciate some feedback to help me sort them out. <a href=mailto: > </a> <a href=

http://vorpalcom.netfirms.com>another

temporary Vorpalcom home page</a> Send me suggestions or comments on my current software project.

DougP · Apr 4, 2000

Microsoft has helped me an our company be more productive by leaps and bounds. We e-mail instead of Snail mail, we FAX right from the desktop. We use Access to handle our data and Outlook for Contacts and on and on. And NT Server holds the whole thing together. We order invnetory on line in seconds. Check Status of UPS packages on the internet. We could not function today without it all. The law suit is only going to hurt us all.

robherc · Apr 4, 2000

But yet almost none of the innovations you mention were brought about purely by Micro$~1's efforts. Micro$~1 was not the first to provide PC users with access to e-mail; not the inventors of PC-faxing capabilities; not the first to create an excellent Database program; not the first to market a powerful contact management application; and not the only one offering an OS tailored for the workplace, or for internet servers.     Yes, Micro$~1 has brought many of these things together & made it easier for many people to understand how to use them, but do you honestly believe that we wouldn't be as well off as we are w/o them, or that there isn't someone else, right now, who is capable of replacing each and every one of the services we've grown accustomed to from Micro$~1 with a better product? I believe that the lawsuit will be a pang in the side of many of us; but you can get that from running or walking and pushing your limits. Like in the running/walking scenario though, I think that eventually it will pay off for us as a great benefit.     Now, having made my first rebuttal, I will turn the floor back over to the pro-Micro$~1 for their 15-minute counter

-Robherc <a href=mailto:robherc@netzero.net>robherc@netzero.net</a> <a href= shared.freeservers.com/searchmaster.html>SearchMaster Interface...11-in-1</a> Wanting to learn Assembler; please e-mail me any tutorials or links for it that are useful to you

MasterRacker · Apr 5, 2000

From an economic standpoint, the best product has nothing to do with the best technology or the best interface or the best feature set.  It has to do with the number of users.  Monstrous market share is a good thing.  For example, anyone, anywhere, who knows Word can change jobs, got to a new company that also uses Word and be instantly useful.  Good for them, good for the company. Even Windows has too many customization features. Remember that techie folks like ourselves are a very small minority of the population.  For the great unwashed masses, a lot of choice and differences in products is a bad thing.  Even today Ochschart can go to his friend Herkemeier's house to help him with his computer and find that Herk's bunged his desktop up so bad that Ocky can't even find anything.    We'll never get to the Star Trek world where everyone can use a computer until every computer everywhere looks the same.  Even cars only work becaue most of the controls are in the same place and work the same way.  (even then, don't you spend a few minutes finding everything when you get into an unfamiliar car?) What Microsoft has done is make a waide range of productivity applications available at an affordable price.  Sure, the price could be lower but if the Apple model would have cought on we'd be paying 5000.00 per seat for an office suite.  Not to mention, if you think the competition is bad now, what would happen to the compewtitors if MS were forced to lower their prices? I think Technical people (myself included) tend to get impressed from time to time with their own self-importance.  Because the technology in a product is better, or because it's cheaper doens't make it a better product to use.    Even if a different product gives you some kind of advantage, if no one else is using it, where are you going to hire experts to run it?  You end up burn a significant portion of your advantge income on training and lost initial productivity. Remember that the one and only true purpose of all this technology is to promote business and make money.  If it doesn't do that it's nothing more than cheap entertainment. Is MS an angel, hell no!  Could they have done things differently?  Of couse.  On the whole, however, I feel they've done a lot more good to the economy than harm. (Rob, that was more than 15min 'cause I'm having difficulty typing today....(no I'm not using an MS keyboard

 &nbsp

) Jeff <a href=mailto: masterracker@hotmail.com> masterracker@hotmail.com</a> <a href= > </a> Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mind the most ...

RuffNeck · Apr 5, 2000

I was very surprised to find that I could actually track a UPS package on the Internet using Linux and Netscape. Who needs Micros~1 for that?

John 'RuffNeck' Willemse <a href=mailto:ruffneck@ruthless.nl.com>ruffneck@ruthless.nl.com</a> <a href=

http://users.bart.nl/~ruffneck>Just

my homepage...</a> These pages change every week or so

Some useless C++ 
programs and ideas I never work out can be found from time 
to time...

MikeLacey · Apr 6, 2000

"Microsoft's anti-competitive actions trammeled the competitive process through which the computer software industry generally stimulates innovation and conduces to the optimum benefit of consumers."     U.S. District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson Yes - that's probably true. It's also true to say that Microsoft has not done much new (MS would argue with that no doubt - but bear with me) The Windows Interface - different enough from the Apple offering to give the MS lawyers a toe-hold, but most people who've seen the Apple os would agree that MS Windows family took some inspiration from there - and from X-Windows. So - not new. The Internet - seen by many as something you view through IE - and as a MS thing. It's not, of course, and never has been. So - not new. Yet in these two areas MS has probably done more to spread the use of computers than any other company or individual. I find it hard to take a position here. On the one hand I am irritated by MS's "not-invented-here" and "let's-just-take-this-standard-and-extend-it" attitude, about as far from Open Systems as you can get. On the other hand - MS has probably done more to spread the use of computers than any other company or individual and you can' get away from that. The gripping hand (obscure reference I know) for me is the timing. If this had happened four, even three, years ago I think it would have seriously affected MS's profits and affected their ability to dominate the market place in the way they do today. But not now. Now things will only move away from MS o/s's very slowly. I like that; stability in computer systems is a good thing to some extent as it lets us keep the number of bugs down to a dull roar. We *may* end up with (in five-to-ten years) with a number of different windows products from a number of different companies; I bet that they're all binary compatible with the MS offering. They're probably going to be compatible with Win2K, I find it hard to believe that we can sustain this rate of change in O/S's. We might get that car-like user interface (and I think that analogy came from Bill Gates by the way) right the way down to the API. But that might just be because I'm getting old... Mike Mike Lacey <a href=mailto:Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com>Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com</a> <a href=

http://www.cargill.com/>

Cargill's Corporate Web Site</a>

trixxyp · Apr 7, 2000

i can,t help but feel that if there is no competition then you get that  "you can buy any color as long as its black attitude"   engrossed in all the products ms supply. I look at the change IBM was forced to do once competition had overun them. This forced a fossil to arise and start to innovate instead of procrastinate to survive. Anyone who shouts kill the beast microsoft is crazy. However every animal has an enemie, thats what keeps it on its toes ms has stifled innovation at the consumers loss. ms has implemented a simple idea, intergration a great consumer gain. Now where do we go from here? I say generate competition and innovate. It,s the consumer (you and i) that wins. long live ms and the JOD....

MikeLacey · Apr 7, 2000

Yes trix - the question is "where from here then?" not "how could this thing have happened?" A little competition at this point is unlikely to hurt MS. A little competition *is* likely to benefit consumers by discouraging the arrogance that large and successful companies (not just MS) are prone to. Mike Mike Lacey <a href=mailto:Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com>Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com</a> <a href=

http://www.cargill.com/>

Cargill's Corporate Web Site</a>

pray11342 · Apr 8, 2000

I'm not quite old enough to remember John D Rockefeller's Standard Oil, but I used to listen to The Lone Ranger on the radio.  I DO remember the old AT&T. Now there was a Company with an attitude! But seriously, folks, today I throw away several offers a week for telephone services that consumers would have killed for in the sixties. Innovation in the telephone industry moved at a snail's pace until Ma Bell was broken up. As for competition in rates and better deals for cunsumers, there simply wasn't any. Why do you think they had to be regulated? I agree with MasterRacker, there are far too many "features" in our operating systems and in most application suites. Yes, it does take a few minutes to figure out where all the things are when you get into a different car. But what is important is that all the things you need are THERE. And if you don't want to listen to your CD's or run the air conditioning, you can drive off in 30 seconds, tops. This is true of most application suites, also. Since I am not writing a novel or a Corporate annual report, It makes little difference to me if I am using MS Word or Worperfect, version 6.0 or greater. Much of my business, and much of the world's business, is done by people that couldn't tell if they were using Excel or Quattro Pro. If you really NEED one or the other, you have to hire experts to put together your spreadsheets anyway. Thanks to MS's enormous marketing budget, there is no way the average business person would know this. And it certainly doesn't hurt to be big enough to lean on computer manufacturers about what gets installed on the PC's as they are built. Ford and General Motors did not "invent" most of the basic functions in an automobile. They simply evolved through engineering because they made sense. I wonder if anyone ever took out a patent on the steering wheel, for instance. Some things changed because they made more sense. The first cars I drove didn't have turn signals, and I spent a couple years stomping on the floor to dim the lights after that was moved to the steering column. Bad ideas get weeded out. Remember when Ford thought it was a good idea to put the horn on the end of the directional stalk? MS didn't "invent" most of the operating system and the GUI, either. They "invented" some, bought up a lot, engineered it and put it together all in one place. They also came up with some very BAD ideas, that have been weeded out. Remember the first setup procedures for Windows 95, and how the customer was supposed to get a wonderful "Out of the Box Experience" and set there for ten minutes saying "Gee Whiz!" while the software finished installing? In the space of just a few years, MS became the new IBM or AT&T. It is fast becoming their way or the highway. The problem here goes way beyond MS. I for one am glad to see the Justice Department take an interest in the most blatant Corporate practices. Mike Lacey is right, large and successful companies are very prone to arrogance. Competition is good. Free enterprise is good, as long as it is "free". I take that to mean a somewhat level playing field. If MS is the Genral Motors of software, then there is no Ford or Chrysler. Novell probably would compare to American Motors, and there are several Hudsons and Studebakers out there. But not for long, unless the DOJ can stop MS from substituting $Billions of dollars for skill and cunning. Paul Ray <a href=mailto:systech_computers@shianet.org>systech_computers@shianet.org</a> <a href= > </a> Programming Languages -- .BAT Files 
Preffered editor -- EDLIN

Alt255 · Apr 8, 2000

This isn't as eloquent as the previous posts. There is much to be considered regarding Microsoft. Does anybody have comments about the "man" (Bill Gates)? Can we trust him to lead us into the new millennium? <a href=mailto: > </a> <a href=

http://vorpalcom.netfirms.com>another

temporary Vorpalcom home page</a> Send me suggestions or comments on my current software project.

Guest_imported · Apr 10, 2000

Well, I'm the new guy here, and I may take some hits for this, but here goes. While I do have somewhat mixed feelings on this, I find myself leaning strongly in favor of the DOJ on this issue. It is not clear-cut black and white on this issue, all wrong or all right. But there is one thing I do know, and that is that competition and a free market encourages technological advancement, stifling competition and monopoly discourages technological advancement. While Microsoft may be praised for bringing the computer to the masses, it will also be cursed for the way in which it did it, and for the technology that never was because of it. What I curse Microsoft for is for taking away my freedom of choice. I should be the one to decide which browser to use, not Microsoft. I should be the one to decide which operating system to use, not Microsoft. I should be the one to decide which word processing program and spread sheet program to use, not Microsoft. While I'll admit that that freedom is still there to a very small extent, it has been greatly hindered by Microsoft's business practices. Is the gain greater than the loss? I suppose to some, that is the issue. But to me, the issue is that the loss did not have to be as big a part of the equation. Microsoft's actions toward Netscape, Sun, OS/2, Apple, BeOS, Intel, RealNetworks, IBM, Lotus, and open source applications development make it apparent to me that Microsoft is not interested in the health and advancement of the industry as a whole, but only in it's own market share. And if that's at the expense of the industry as a whole and we, the public who use it, so be it. Add to that the illegal pricing restraints practiced by Microsoft, it's attitude toward the applications barrier to entry, as well as its licensing and contractual restrictions, I find it very, very hard not to support Judge Jackson in his findings. George Bernard Shaw said: "You see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream things as they never were and ask, 'Why not?'" It is sad to say that Microsoft has put itself in the position of causing the largest part of the "Why not?" Even sadder is that Microsoft could have put itself in the position of being a respected leader and champion of the industry, but instead "sold it's heritage for a bowl of porridge."

Griz · Apr 10, 2000

Hit them with some BIG fines for unfair business / competition practices (Make sure it hurts), but for Gosh Sakes keep the company intact! Thats' my story and I'm stickin to it!

pray11342 · Apr 11, 2000

Can we trust Bill Gates to lead us into the next millenium? Can you recall the names of five men that lead us into the last millenium? Lets talk about the next CENTURY. Think about it, could we trust John D Rockefeller, J P Morgan, Henry Ford, etc. to lead us into the last century? Outside of regulation by the DOJ or other agencies, we have very little to say about where Bill Gates and MicroSoft or other, less visible economic giants in media, information technologies, communications, entertainment/news (notice which I listed first) will "lead" us. Let me know when they hold an election. Corporations, and the men that own/run them have done amazing and wonderful things for the quality of life in our world. However, I notice that they plant at least as many weeds as they do flowers. I trust Bill gates to do at least as well. Paul Ray <a href=mailto:systech_computers@shianet.org>systech_computers@shianet.org</a> <a href= > </a> Programming Languages -- .BAT Files 
Preffered editor -- EDLIN

Alt255 · Apr 17, 2000

From the good-news-bad-news department: Bill Gates lost 1.1 billion dollars from his personal fortune last week. For those of us with only a little comprehension of the meaning of nine zeroes, that's enough money to launch your own personal, global satellite network. For those who hate Bill Gates, the good news is that he is slightly poorer this week. For the vast majority, the bad news is that the lost money will be retrieved from our wallets. <a href=mailto: > </a> <a href=

http://vorpalcom.netfirms.com>another

temporary Vorpalcom home page</a> Send me suggestions or comments on my current software project.

juliaroberts · Apr 26, 2000

hi guys! Amazing ! most of you guys seem to be cry babies. did ms tell you to use only Windows? did ms tell you to use only word? did ms tell you to use only IE? for god sake you are the customer.if you don't like windows what is preventing you from going in for linux? if you don't like word what is preventing you from going for something else? finally it's your own choice. Whatever said and done I have worked on windows, word and IE and find them to be better and far more superior as a product than it's nearest competitors. what is bugging you guys is the power and success of MS. Nobody likes a company that is successful ? evryone wants to pull it down. In this era of cut throat competition Bill Gates has come out as the winner... why? Because he has got the business strategies . What do you expect him to do? Go coothie cooing with his competitors? You guys have got to admit he is smart. Otherwise he wouldn't be where he is right now. If i am a manufacturer I decide how my product should be. If I want my os to be integrated with my browser then thats my problem not yours. If you don't like it go buy some other product. Moreover this integration is going to help the consumer in these new times when we see more and more people using the net. Why not integrate the os with the browser?   Way to go Gates and Microsoft! We are behind you!!!

MikeLacey · Apr 27, 2000

Well. It's not often you see a tek-tips post from a famous movie star. Mike <a href=mailto:Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com>Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com</a> <a href=

http://www.cargill.com/>

Cargill's Corporate Web Site</a>

juliaroberts · Apr 27, 2000

hi Mike, I am an ardent fan of Microsoft and Bill Gates and it's not without a reason. Ms may not have invented the Windows style interfaces. He may not have been the first to bring out the browser. but Ford didn't inevnt the car. But Ford was the person who was inspired to make the first assembly line for commercial production of cars. That was why Ford  was and is so successful. The same applies to Microsoft. If somebody else invented the browser then how come the most popular one is IE right now? If some one else invented the Windows interface how come Windows OS is on 80 percent of all hardware machines in the world right now? It's because of this.... you get inspired and you seize oppurtunities. Whatever said and done MS wasn't born big. Nobody is born big for that matter. He made it big and full credit to him. It's relatively easy to reach the top but a harder proposition to stay there. MS can't afford to stagnate in the quality of products that he offers. He knows it and he will continue to deliver. So there is no question of consumers getting inferior quality products because of lack of competition.

Griz · Apr 28, 2000

Howdy Julia, "MS can't afford to stagnate in the quality of products that he offers." I agree with most of your statements but the above statement is what should be, but unfortunatley isn't! I am service packed to death. Their (MS) quality is less than desirable and has been stagnate for quite some time although I hear that WIN200 is better? Griz Randal Cooke <a href=mailto:randy.cooke@elkviewcoal.com>randy.cooke@elkviewcoal.com</a> <a href=

http://www.teckcorp.com>Teck

Mining</a> Just another Techno Super Freak Wannabe....Sigh.

tyrant · Apr 28, 2000

I can't belive some of the pro MS arguments I am seeing here. MS has broken the law, Bill Gates is a criminal.  That is how he has made it big and successful. IE is more popular becuase it has been forced down peoples throats and at the expense of an, at the time, better product, Netscape.  If you don't believe me, read up on the details of the case. MS admitted Netscape was a better product and made plans to use it's weight to crush the oppositon. I would have been happy if they would have done so by building a better product, but by using bundling and exclusionary contracts with OEM's? Anybody who defends MS practices in this area are either ignorant or have no common sense. Now with the mozilla project building a faster, leaner, standards compliant browser, all of which IE lacks, and when AOL switches over to use netscape as it''s default browser we will see who has the dominant browser then. Competition is a good thing, and the sooner the DOJ stops MS from stifling it, the better.

MikeLacey · Apr 28, 2000

I was with Julia right to the words "no question of consumers getting inferior quality products because of lack of competition." That just doesn't seem to be the case, and I'm not talking about MS here really. I would suggest that competition, with consumers having a real choice and being able to take their cash elsewhere, is the thing that keeps us *all* companies on our toes. Key things here are "real choice and being able to take their cash elsewhere" MS's position is now very strong. A typical MS tactic would be to take an existing technology and make it their own by giving it the MS treatment, I'm thinking specifically here of the story I read about kerberos (the standard security protocol) that is now included in W2K (I think). The MS implementation is very nearly standard - but not standard enough to work with *any* other vendor (I understand that MS have used a "reserved" field for their own purposes) There is so much MS out there now that it just doesn't matter what the other vendors do. They have to follow MS - no problem I hear you say, just use the previously reserved field as MS have done --- but the use of that field has not been publicly documented, so you can't. So - I agree with Julia right up to the last sentence - and I disagree with tyrant, right up to the last sentence wher (s)he says "Competition is a good thing" - I can't argue with that. Mike (If I've got any technical details wrong here - please jump in and correct me) Mike <a href=mailto:Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com>Mike_Lacey@Cargill.Com</a> <a href=

http://www.cargill.com/>

Cargill's Corporate Web Site</a> Please don't send me email questions without posting them as well. Post the question and send me a note saying "Have a look at so-and-so would you?" - that's fine.

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