More anti-offshoring backlash 19

[dgillz]

Nows its the State of Indiana against Indian offshore contracts:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5111987.html

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Exact Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

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[CajunCenturion]

True, but it's not just about IT people, or others losing their jobs. It's keeping the money in the community. Losing jobs costs the state both in the loss of revenue from the tax base, and in unemployment compensation. But it goes further. It's the loss of tax revenues from money spent at Wal-Mart, hotels, restaurants, clothing stores, et al. Unemployed folks don't spend those dollars. That's hurts all of those businesses as well, which in turn may lead to cutbacks in those and other support services.

The more money that is kept circulating in the community, the better off that community is.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Onyxpurr]

"The more money that is kept circulating in the community, the better off that community is."

I find this topic alone to be of great interest. Have you ever read, "Affluenza"? It looks into the common fall of people thinking they need more (money, cars, houses, credit cards) to feel successful. Our entire nation is based on this theory (GNP), however I don't have a better alternative to that theory nationally.

I hope I can remember that although I'm not making $50k, I am living comfortably. I have a house, a car that runs, food on my table every night, heck, I even eat out most nights (and some days) which would be extravagant (sp?) to some people.

This may be a paradigm shift that us ITer's will have to do if jobs keep being outsourced and our salaries start declining.

I do agree with what one person said about focusing in on jobs that have to stay here though. I may be a programmer, but if I stick with smaller companies (who don't have the resources to outsource) or companies involved with protected private information than I can stay competetive.

By the way, good thoughts guys!! Even though I know we personally can't resolve this issue, I think a lot of good comments have started my brain to thinking how I can adapt and survive these problems. <thumbs up>

 

[chiph]

If you think of it from the goverment's perspective -- their &quot;income&quot; is tax revenue. By replacing $25/hr IT jobs with $8/hr Wal*Mart jobs, they reduce their tax revenue, and have to terminate programs which they have promised to deliver. So there's some motivation for them to keep high-paying jobs local. Plus there's the prestige effect -- being able to brag that &quot;We're a center of high technology&quot;, vs. &quot;We've got a curvature-of-the-earth Wal*Mart&quot;.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[CajunCenturion]

&quot;...if jobs keep being outsourced and our salaries start declining&quot; There is no IF about it. Jobs are being outsourced, and salaries are declining.

I don't need more than I have to feel successful, nor am i particular driven towards any increases. I am however, distressed about the declines already in progress, and their effects. I would like to try and slow that rate of decline.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Dimandja]

The way I see it, software production has entered the dumbed down phase of the current IT industry. There are questionable, poorly documented &quot;wizards&quot; for everything. The quality of software produced nowadays is mediocre at best. Many ITers are no longer required to worry about the &quot;stuff under the hood&quot;.

To illustrate, take a look at the HTML code running an average web site. What a mess! I won't even ask you to look at the obscured server side code. The notion of well constructed, well behaved code is replaced with speedy mindless haphazardly spewed code.

System crashes and erratic code behavior are expected and tolerated: &quot;Press that key again, it usually works after a reboot&quot;.

Lowered salaries seem to go hand in hand with lowered software expectations.

Dimandja

 

[CajunCenturion]

Does that mean that expectations of low salaried offshore working force is correspondingly low?

I don't know, but the cause-effect relationship could be reversed. Was it poorer quality software that led to lower salaries, or was is lower salaries that led to poorer programmers?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Dimandja]

I'm sure that off-shore salaries are high by their own standards. So, no, I am comparing a given society (US) against itself.

As to the cause, I think the tremenduous demand in software sprouted lots of bad imitators. Software development became the equivalent of fast food production. Try convincing an average teen that there are better alternative to the billionnieth burger sold.

Let's see how many seasonned ITers who worked at shops that would rather count lines of code. How about software that came with intelligible documentation?

Dimandja

 

[Dollie]

In order to keep money in the community, the community must keep the companies bringing in the tax revenue. To push them out by cancelling state contracts is in no way advantageous. It creates a much bigger loss for the community. There are still many states that don't punish companies for moving jobs, and they are still collecting revenue for the communities involved.

Why would a large conglomeration want to stay in a state that punishes them for staying in business? Moving to another state would be easier.

 

[Onyxpurr]

&quot;As to the cause, I think the tremenduous demand in software sprouted lots of bad imitators.&quot;

I would imagine a lot of industries are this way. Hopefully companies will see the advatantage of hiring a 'professional' ITer as compared to just someone who know how to do code.

I'll tell ya right now, that my job includes a heck of a lot more than doing code. Documentation, analysis, thorough knowledge of all the processes involved in my db's. Someday my head swims from all the stuff I have to do, remember, or document.

So, I guess in short, in a way this might be good. Less demand might weed out the 'unprofessionals' and leave the good jobs for those of us who are in it for more than just the money (although the money's nice)

 

[BillyRayPreachersSon]

Regarding the local government agency...

If you don't like the way the local government is running things, don't vote for them again. They may well listen if they find themselves down a few hundred votes.

Regarding being out of work, and finding work...

Until recently, I'd been out of work ('between contracts') for about 3 months. I kept sending my CV out to numerous agencies, but never even got to the interview stage, despite the fact my skills are up-to-date and I'm very good at what I do. I didn't bitch or moan constantly about being unemployed - I kept on applying for jobs (admittedly with no luck).

During that 3 month period, I kept my skills up-to-date (Tek-Tips was an immense help there, as answering questions really helped to keep things fresh in my mind), and learned a few new skills. I still had no luck getting a job.

After a while, I was given some advice by an agent. Rewrite my CV.

This advice was quite hard to take on, as I'd only recently rewritten it, and was quite proud of the results (after spending 3 days on it).

After a few days of sitting on their advice, I swallowed my pride, and took the advice on. I scrapped most of what I had, and started again. The agency submitted the new CV to one of their clients (who had initially turned me down on the basis of my old CV), and I had an interview within days. I had a 6-month contract within a week.

My point? I guess to all those people who have skills, but seem unable to find work (which can lead to a spiral of self-pity or depression): Ask agencies what they consider makes a good CV. Listen to their advice, and take it on. They know, because they deal with these things every minute of every day. Those keywords again: Listen, and Action.

If you're too proud to accept what they say, then nothing I can say will help you. If you take their feedback on board (whether it's positive or negative), and action it, then you will have a much better chance of finding a job.

Just my 2 pence worth ;o)

Dan

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

Lets point out that offshore code houses are not worse programmers/analysts etc.

Saddly if you look at quality proceedures within some of these offshore houses they are much better then many local companies. There are points where is better for a company to use an offshore company then using a local work force and not just for direct $ savings.

Many organisations have to look inward and make themselves, just as we do as individual, look more appealing.

As far as the state government situation. Its hard to simplify because it is not a simple situation. Government has a tendancy to simplify the explanation of things when pitching it to the people. That is because they are pitching it to a level where the majority of their votes come from. You might sit there and say &quot;They aren't thinking about x,y,z!&quot; based on their pitch but are you thinking they might actually have thought about x,y,z and just not thrown it out there as it would have just confused people. Look at how political campains work. The stress 1 point and make it as simple as possible. That doesn't mean they don't concider other points....just means the masses, and this is not meant badly, are not used to recieving all the information and will just be confused....you can take this as the masses are not adept at looking at the big picture.

I'm not saying what the government is doing is right....I'm just saying they probably have concidered many other the factors that people point out even if they don't express it when they pitch their solution. Difference is that, as much as we'd like to think we know better, we base much of our opinions on how we think it would work. How many of us have gone out there and crunched numbers looking at how putting a law like this causes some jobs to be retianed, New jobs to be created, some jobs being lost do to companies moving.

Its all well for us to comment on the different aspects but if we haven't done real research into it we are really just guessing. I'd hope that government actually did try to crunch the numbers first and you should be able to find that out.



Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[CajunCenturion]

I'm not making qualitative judgements one way or the other about either local or remote companies. There is good and bad on both sides.

I agree that with respect to public funds it's not an easy question and there are no easy answers. Perhaps I'm just being cyncial, but politicians simplify their rhetoric, not to prevent confusing their voting base, but to sway their voting base into voting for them. I do believe that they've thought about x,y, and z, but they don't put it out there because either they're afraid it's not what the voters want to hear, or because it's too long-term to serve the needs of a short lived term in office. And I think it's mostly the latter. If the politicians wanted to explain the big picture in terms the masses could understand, then they would.

Given the adversarial nature of politics, you can bet the numbers have been crunched by both sides, and that they will be spun by both sides favorably to their position. But in either case, the primary objective is get elected now, and again in either 2, 4, or 6 years (or whatever term you have), and not necessarily what is in the best long-term interests of the community.

I think it's quite possible that there is enough concern about the long term from the grass roots that the issue is being brought to bear, and forcing the politicians to listen and take action.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Dimandja]

Yes, public funds can be a thorny issue.

But, as far as IT issues are concerned, I think our politicians can use some educating. IT is so little understood among ITers themselves that I wonder what an average politician would base their pitch on?

If jobs are going to be shipped to the 'southern Mars region', I want the politicians to know that the chances of Mars shipping those jobs back to this state are next to nil. And that once the state looses IT knowledge, many other industries within the state may have to outsource as well.

This is because practically nothing can be manufactured anymore without an intimate interaction with locally grown software. For example, have you seen two banks use exactly the same software - even to perform mundane tasks as processing a ATM transaction?

Explain IT to your local politicians; chances are they don't know what you are talking about.

Dimandja

 

[chiph]

Saddly if you look at quality proceedures within some of these offshore houses they are much better then many local companies. There are points where is better for a company to use an offshore company then using a local work force and not just for direct $ savings.

I think that's both an advantage and a disadvantage for them.

Advantage, when you need someone to just write some code based on a spec and make sure it works.

Disadvantage, when you need someone to create a new piece of code that has never been written before, without a spec.

From what I've heard, this is a consequence of the Indian educational system. They place much more emphasis on learning by rote, and less on original thinking and problem solving. So if you need someone to &quot;program by the rules&quot;, then sending development there would make financial success. If you need someone to &quot;think outside the box&quot;, it probably wouldn't.

Chip H.


If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

Probably 1 reason IBM Global Services in Australia is maintaining the Management and BA work in Australia while hand balling the code and testing back to IBM in India.

I'm not naive that politicians do things best for there careers the majority of the time but honestly I have many friends both very intelligent and well....not so swift. Start talking to them about world politics and many of them just get a glazed eye when I intruduce a multitude of factors going into a situation.

People like things to be simple. Its easier for people to support or protest simple situations. Its easy to blame the Iraq war on US wanting direct control of Iraq's oil but thats not it. Its easy to support the war saying its all about WMD. Its easy to point fingers at Bush and blame his policies for attacks on the US but very intelligent people like to forget that these attacks where in motion long before G.W. Bush was in office. Its easy to blame R.Regan for massive Military spending but people like to forget that Carter proposed budget when he left excided R.R.'s actual military buget.

People like to think in simple terms for the most part. Its a lot easier to bash off-shore companies when you put it in simple terms. But we live in a complex world and if people pull their heads out and step back many of people simple arguements don't wash. That is what I'm trying to point out.

With IT and a few other fields we probably tend to think of other factors more in some situations. But I bet if you look at many issues that you take a strong side on many if not most are dictated by an overly simplistic model of the real situation.



Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[AnanthaP]

Regarding the Indian education system...

I think that all educational systems produce about the same number of persons who can think &quot;out off the box&quot;. It's always down to the individual.

Also, it doesn't mean that if a company's quality systems are good, they are not good at creative stuff. Just that they got the self-discipline to be part of a team and follow standardised practice for what is essentially not an esoteric art or not requiring finely honed skills (one years experience many times over!?!).

In fact it's because they think out of the box, that they got quality systems and certifications in the first place.

Standardisation does have it's advantages. If you look at it, a level 3, 4 or 5 SEI-CMM company is also usually able to deliver good, consistent and lasting products AND solutions.

Anantha from India.
End

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

Good point AnanthaP * for you. Good to see a view from your side of the fence. The only issue I have with offshoring a project (and this also applies to a company just outsourcing to another company that may not be &quot;local&quot; ie within a state or more specifically within a distances where commuting isn't an issue) is communication. Some of my concerns deals with how much the development organisation interacts with the customer. The other is a language barrier. Both of these can be over come but it just has to be concidered along with everything else.

Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[petermeachem]

Just read through this.

What is the difference between offshoring and importing?

There was a link to theinquirer.net They are advertising Canon cameras, imported, Fuji cameras, imported, Gigabyte and Asus motherboards, not sure where they are made, but probably imported.
Why is it ok to import hardware, but not to import software.

I assume the US is not coy about exporting. I don't see many complaints about you taking other peoples jobs away?

Isn't this just protectionism?

http://www.accuflight.com

http://www.lettersdirect.co.uk

http://www.ourhouseinportugal.co.uk/

 

[dilettante]

I think the essential point people are trying to make has little to do with hard goods vs. software (or services).

The sort of difference we are seeing now is an accelerating pace of domestic companies sending the work elsewhere, bringing back the finished goods (or software or services), and marketing the finished product here. This is something like a U.K. company that creates its software in Equador or someplace for low wages, then turns around and markets it back in the U.K. for the same or slightly discounted rates.

The important point is that such a business undermines it's own home market.

What many don't realize is that there are several hidden dangers.

The obvious one is that you don't want to weaken your own market too much. Enough to live well at others' expense, but not enough that they can't still buy your output.

Another problem is that when you strip enough resources out of an economy and culture, it begins to decay. Pretty soon you don't want to live there yourself: pollution, infrastructual neglect, political dissent, predation and abandonment of the weak, as well as crime all increase.

A different sort of problem is what happens when you increase the appeal of your company through high profits. If members of your own nation have been economically undercut and can't afford to compete with foreign investment from other wealthy nations (or the wealthy classes of poor nations) you risk eventually losing control entirely to foreign interests.


It is this sort of "I hate my country I just want to be richer and richer the easy way" attitude by business policy makers that people are complaining about. There is nothing new about greed. The conditions have changed and they are being taken advantage of. What has changed is that we are now in an era where businesses can move capital, goods, and information at extremely low costs.

This is nothing unexpected. Most people never considered it likely though, because most have a lot of faith in human nature. But humans (or human institutions) don't always tend behave morally in large groups.

The "job leaks" are presently slower than many fear. But they are much faster than a few years ago and the pace is increasing. Unless some major structual changes are made in the rules soon the "race for the bottom" will move until it seeks its new level. Unless these rules can be relatively uniform for all they will never be accepted.

 

[johnwm]

For a clearer overview of some of the underlying forces involved I refer you to 'An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations' by Adam Smith
Fifth edition (1789)

http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN.html

particularly Chapter 4 of Book 3. It's interesting to note that although the basics of national and international economics was clearly understood in the 18th century, we as a group still seem to have little grasp of those principles now. For anyone interested in the principles of economics the whole book is very worthwhile.

________________________________________________________________
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