More anti-offshoring backlash 19

[dgillz]

Nows its the State of Indiana against Indian offshore contracts:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5111987.html

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Exact Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.trianglepartners.com

 

[svanels]

The new jobs at the larger companies are often overseas, which is how we have a "jobless recovery".

Strange, the jobs are moving outside the US, but why on earth is everybody moving to the US for work?

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[jrbarnett]

I agree with svanels and dbMark in that the market seems to be picking up at the moment, but the jobs don't seem to be there.
Perhaps a tactic worth considering is going for jobs that require physical presence (eg deskside support, hardware installation/configuration) because even with the current cheap air fares, it suddenly costs a lot every time an engineer has to fly from one continent to another to fix a problem. Having onsite support staff is essential for hardware problems where remote control software isn't enough or the network has broken, so remote control can't connect.
Yes, employers could have outsourced locally, but these organisations will still need local engineers/techs around to do the work for the reasons stated.

John

 

[svanels]

Tech support, I had a chat with a friend who has a small software bussiness (small finanancial apps like inventory, point of sale etc.) He is owner, director and has about 6 support offices in a range 200 km. He makes good money, but he has to do almost everything.
He described a normal working day, where he got 3 calls from clients.
Call 1: 8:00AM Client computer has crashed, computer must go to shop. Temporary system must be installed ASAP because the convenient store anex service station opens at 9:00. The night before there was heavy rain with ligthning. Support must go on site. As usual no back-ups has been made. The technician makes the mess even bigger.

Call 2: 10:00 System screwed up, client's son has been messing around, dad can not tell the difference between the desktop and file explorer.

Call 3: 12:00 Operating system has been upgraded to XP, it would be a miracle if they had consulted the office before.

Bottom line you have to work with customers, they do not hold a MS in IT, they want their problems fixed. You let them down, you are out of bussiness in a while.
Maybe this is one of the main reasons for off-shoring, the CEO want to keep his big earnings and is looking for cheap resources elswhere, instead of analyzing corporate bussiness practice, culture and customers relations.



Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

IBM just re-won a Telstra (the semi-government telecom in australia) contract here in Australia but to do so they had to partially move things off shore. The Development work is being moved to India while the BA and management is being kept in Australia. Its economics and I think IBM did good to keep that work. If they tried to keep it all in Australia it would have all gone off-shore.

This solution also gets over a bit of the off-shore problem many companies have. Hopefully the communication between IBM in Australia and IBM in India will be better then a straight Australian company to Indian company. Still it is estimated a few hundred jobs are effected by this transition.

 

[Dollie]

To throw another wrench into this wheel...

What does everyone think of the state of Colorado trying to pass a law that would effectively cancel state contracts of companies that move jobs from Colorado to another country?

At first glance, it seems to appeal to the anti-offshore movement, but I see it as a bit socialist and oppressive.

Any opinions?

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

I see it as trying to promote the local econimy.

I'm not black and white on globalisation. I see its good points and its bad points.

The state governments job is to look after its residents. Sending governments contract out of state may be better and cheeper for the state in the short term but if it puts large numbers of people out of work it is worse long term.

I don't know the specifics of this but that is what it sounds like it is trying to do to me.....keep the local econimy alive. Income tax doesn't do any good if you've put your residents out of work and they don't pay taxes.

Hope I've been helpful,
Wayne Francis

If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

 

[sem]

I just wonder why the opposite side is not introduced her? I mean programmers from China and India, offshoring companies and their partners within US. I may assume that they're too busy with their own work thus have no time for crying for jobs flying away. Note that their presence in pure technical forums is far more active

Regards, Dima

http://seminihin.narod.ru

 

[CajunCenturion]

You may assume whatever you wish sem, but based on your previous post, you'd most likely be incorrect.

I think you'll find the reason that the other side is not heavily represented in these discussions is because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so. They are the beneficiaries of those policies. It is not their public money being being spent outside of their community, and they are not the ones suffering any losses. Why would they want to rock the boat?

Further, the best people to defend these policies are the ones who make them, and the ones who implement them. These people are generally not in IT and I seriously doubt that any of them are present in any of the technical fora, much less participating actively.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[sem]

CajunCenturion, this obviously doesn't relate to you, but in any case thank you for your permission
In general I do not represent any side in this discussion, I'm just trying to clear up for myself wheather this is indeed an issue for US IT industry or just a witch hunting.

I also want to make some predictions about the world IT market both as IT employee and as a consumer of IT products. Sure, it would be great to buy goods produced by others for nothing and sell own products at the highest price, but...

Regards, Dima

http://seminihin.narod.ru

 

[CajunCenturion]

I understand your position sem, but it does directly relate to me. It most certainly is an issue and not a witch hunt. Given the number of articles referenced in this and other similar threads, it's hard to see how one could not recogonize it as a real issue. It's getting too much press for too many different sources not to be real.

As an IT professional, I am directly affected by the offshoring of IT jobs. Thankfully, I'm keeping quite busy these days, but that has not always been the case. As a citizen, I am directly involved because, with respect to government contracts, be they local, state, or national, it's public tax payer money being used to fund these projects, and I therefore do have a say in how that money should be spent. I also fear that, as is often the case, that politicians and CEOs are more focused on short term gains at the cost of long term economic stability. It's more than just the jobs, it's the long term economic repercussions that such policies will have on local communities.

Two posts ago, you wonder why the other side has not been introduced. From your perspective, maybe you can shed some light on on the other side. How are these trends and policies good for the US?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[sem]

I'll try. Any market consists of those who sell and those who buy. Non-IT people have to pay their own money for OS, text editor, probably some games etc. Obviously they demand better products at a lower price. Can you argue that in this situation the number of consumers is much higher than that of providers? Wouldn't you take into account their opinions also?
Another issue is that IMO protectionism depraves. I'm sure that your government is more robust than our, but in my country such policy in motor-car construction just brought up prices. Thus now I have a choice either to purchase an extremely lame local car or to pay for an imported one half as much again. Sure, those who make that lame cars are happy, but not me.
As for witch hunting - I don't beleive newspapers, especially on the eve of election. I don't think PR activity there differs a lot from our. At the same time none of my friends in US (ex-Soviets) makes less than $100K, and their careers still go up. That's why I'm posting in such fora.

Regards, Dima

http://seminihin.narod.ru

 

[Dollie]

After watching clients move jobs overseas, I can understand the tension within the IT industry. However, don't you think the politicians trying to make these bills law should be working to create the jobs they promised during their campaigns instead of eliminating contracts and work?

Logically, if I were a major company that just moved jobs overseas and found state politicians eliminating my state contract, I'd be looking into moving the entire company to another state, not just the jobs. The state loses, both ways.

Something just tells me that these new laws, if they go into effect, will be worse on our situation than several thousand jobs going to India.

 

[CajunCenturion]

We are all certainly entitled to our own opinions, and it's ok that we disagree. It's obvious that neither of us is going to change the other, and that's ok too. But I will say, this discourse has been far more enjoyable some of the earlier posted non-productive comments that were directed at the issues.

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Dimandja]

Let me mention that off-shoring has been practiced by virtually every major company (in the US and elsewhere). Ever wonder where your Chevy parts are really made?

Dimandja

 

[Onyxpurr]

Yes, dimandja, I agree. Did you know that most of those larger companies revenue is made up of about 60% from sales off shore?

If you start refusing to allow them to outsource, that flow of income may dwindle away. Less revenue, less money to pay workers. Who do you think they're going to layoff first? The $50,000 programmer in US or $20,000 worker in India?

Just a thought.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Just as the Toyota Camry is made is Kentucky.

This is not whether or not offshoring exists, well all know that it does. The discussion should center around the ethical implications of offshoring, especially with respect the the short and long term economic repurcussions.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Dimandja]

As an ITer, I would feel warm and fuzzy if the jobs are (1) where I live and (2) pay the salary I want.

There really are no ethical implications in off-shoring. IT corporations want to survive, just as the auto industry is surviving. Without off-shoring many cannot compete in the US.

Some products cannot be sustainably made in the US because of the high salaries there. But, the US can do tremenduous research and design because of the abundance of funds there.

For those reasons, most electronic products, including digital watches, cannot be profitably made in the US. IT may turn out to be the next 'digital watch' of the US.

Since I make good money in IT in the US, this analysis makes my stomach churn, but those are the facts as I see them.

Dimandja

 

[CajunCenturion]

You make some valid points. The big ethical consideration from my perspective is the use of public funds to offshore. I want my tax dollars to stay in the appropripriate jurisdiction.

What a private company does with its funds is it's own business. What the stockholders deem appropriate for a publicly traded company is how they protect their investments.

But with respect to government contracts, it is we, the taxpayers who are the investors, and as such, we should have a say in how and where those dollars are spent.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Dollie]

CajunCenturion said: "But with respect to government contracts, it is we, the taxpayers who are the investors, and as such, we should have a say in how and where those dollars are spent."

Unfortunately, we elect politicians with the understanding that they are our voice, our representative, to the government and will choose how our money is spent. Lobbyists ensure that our voice is not heard, but they do ensure that pockets are kept filled, where appropriate.

I agree with Dimandja in that salaries here are too high for some products. With the demands for higher pay and lower prices, we can't compete. We'd all like to make $100 grand a year, and pay only $5K for a car, but it's just not feasible. We would be looking at a greater recession than the one after WWI. Some type of balance is in order to comply with the demands of the american public, but the wrong people are making the compliance decisions.

 

[Dimandja]

If the state can make several more millions in revenue, at the expense of a few IT people losing their jobs, it is hard to argue against that. Although IT people will most likely scream bloody murder. Except, IT people are not the only taxpayers in the state.

If the government can show that off-shoring actually benefits the state, then it would be very difficult to argue.

Dimandja