Web: Why won't clients listen to me? 18

[pl12987]

<vent>
I am so tired of clients telling me how to do my job. Everybody knows exactly what they want, regardless of whether it is good or not.

Yes, yes, we are paid to give them what they want....but that should not be an absolute.

I feel like I am being used for convenience more than expertise. Clients view my function as simply being a builder. I try, when I can, to explain why something will or will not work, why something is or is not a good idea. But that only works if the client is willing to listen, because they acknowledge that I know more about the web and/or IT than they do. More and more, nobody wants to admit that. Nobody wants to acknowledge anybody else's expertise in anything, because everybody wants to be the expert themselves.

I have spent weeks in training courses learning programming languages, spent thousands of hours coding, studied graphic design, usability, user interfaces, what makes something effective, built dozens of web sites and CDs and programs and THIS IS WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING, OKAY? I KNOW MORE ABOUT IT THAN YOU DO. SO YOU JUST TELL ME YOUR GOAL, AND LET ME TELL YOU HOW TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOAL.

But no, they want me to be their Front Page, they want to pick the colors, and put this here and do this and that. And they want to tell me exactly what I do so they can &quot;do it themsleves.&quot;

IF ANYBODY CAN DO ANYTHING, HOW IS ANYBODY GOING TO EARN A LIVING?

IF ANYBODY CAN PRETEND TO DO ANYTHING, HOW IS ANYTHING GOING TO BE DONE WELL?

</vent>

 

[butchrecon]

pl12987:

Your frustration is felt in nearly all IT fields that deal with the public. When I worked in a computer shop I would litterally have people telling me how to do my job. I had customers watch everything I did and point out &quot;the best way to do it&quot; OR &quot;do you think thats right&quot;. Because of that I had a curtain installed in the tech room and posted a sighn that states NO SERVICE WORK TO BE DONE WHILE THE CUSTOMER WAITS. I know it upset a lot of people but I got tired of the nitpicking and the sarcasm because the custome read a book or a magazine and knew how to do the job better than me. Well if they knew how to do the job better than me, then WHY did you bring it to me to repair.

So you see it happens to the best of us and venting wil be your only releae. James Collins
Systems Support Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[carp]

You always have the ace in the hole - &quot;If YOU know how to do it, and YOU have time to watch me do it, WHY did you hire ME to do it?!&quot; Of course, this opens the possibility of their responding &quot;You're right! Pick up your check at the door!&quot;

On the other hand, if you make recommendations and the customer overrides them, I would suggest you document this (in your copious spare time, of course!). That way you are covered when the project finally collapses or they want you to fix &quot;your&quot; work for free. You can point out where you recommended against a given course of action several weeks ago; therefore, what they NOW want is a change request that they WILL have to pay for and COULD have been avoided if only they had listened!

 

[MasterRacker]

The higher up the corporate ladder you look, the more decisions are driven by ego or greed instead of sense. What you are experiencing is normal. As carp said, document the development and especially your concerns. On serious flaws, make the customer sign a waiver absolving you of responsibility.
Jeff

I haven't lost my mind - I know it's backed up on tape somewhere ....

 

[pivan]

Wow...been there done that...

I found the best way to minimize this sort of crap...especailly given that the customer is alway right (amazing concept in this day and age ) is through requirements documentation and specifications...AND a schedule that freezes changes.

For a small shop it may not be the entire Rational Unified Process, but some variations on the them that are pertinent to the scale of the work.

1) Expectations in the form of requirements need to be communicated between client and developer. Easier to change here then during test.

2) Schedule needs to be agreed on and CHANGES & RISK MANAGED !! (Wow...you want to add a field and calculation for overtime. No problem, but it will add/slip the schedule by two weeks. Let me know if you still want me to add this)

3) The Process Model needs to support and be consistent with the business needs.

Good luck...this stuff is epidemic in any business.

G'Luck
pivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[Zantor]

The best way to overcome these problems is to sit down with your client before you begin designing or building anything. Find out what they want, get them to give you some examples and descriptions, you want plenty of detail here.
Now go away and put together a first draft plan in words and pictures. Meet again with your client and get his/her approval.
Now we actually start building. Lets assume you're building a web site. Put together a prototype, it doesn't have to functional at all, it's just to show the customer what the main pages will look like (be sure to use their logo).
Get the customer to give you their opinion on the colours and layout.
You may go through a few iterations here but it will be worth it.
Once the design is finalised, get your clients approval in writing.
Now build it.
Remember, you consult WITH your client, not AGAINST him.
I find that if I keep this in mind I rarely have any problems with my clients.

 

[pivan]

&quot;Remember, you consult WITH your client, not AGAINST him.&quot;

I like that.... a nice mantra.

Thanks,
pivan
If not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[SpiritOfLennon]

Quite often the problem is not that the client is not prepared to listen, but that you need to sell your own ideas to your client in order to present them with a viable solution. I spent some time a few years ago reading up on sales techniques amongst other business related subjects and discovered that with a better understanding of business and a better approach to selling my ideas I became much more successful at convincing clients that I was much more than a glorified typist.

 

[jtb]

Communication skills...

The hardest parts about sales are remembering (1) even jerks have money, and (2) you have to &quot;close&quot; the sales...

Now before you flip to the next post, aren't we all sort of selling our services either as self-employed or as part of a big corporation...

Anyway, sitting down and chatting with them to determine what they need done is a goodness. It enables you to say quite clearly: &quot;If I do X, will you be satisfied?&quot; At which point you find out if that was what they really wanted or if it was a &quot;red herring&quot;...

Anyway, don't forget the rules--especially don't forget to ask them about the specific outcome they want, write it down and then you can get their signoff and move along...

Regards,
JTB
Senior Infrastructure Consultant
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSE-W2K, MCIWA, SCSA, SCNA in progress)

 

[DHage]

Attitude is a big part of getting customers to listen, whether they are your co-workers or actual clients. Granting the frustration in the original post, I still thought I detected somewhat of an attitude of defensiveness and insecurity, kind of like Rodney Dangerfield, &quot;I don't get no respect.&quot;

It's kind of like a job interview -- you're not there to find out what they can do for you (such as making you feel experienced and competent), you're there to tell them what you can do for them. Listen to everything they say and support it, then offer suggestions in a way that highlights the advantages FOR THEM. Better programming isn't advantageous to them, as far as they can tell. Saving time or money is.

And why shouldn't clients want something developed that can easily be maintained by them? I know I do. It may not be possible, but it's a good idea.

I've learned this stuff the hard way, and can't say I always remember to practice it. If you see yourself as the client's best ally, everything gets easier (except getting to the stage of seeing yourself that way).

 

[Luckyfour]

When dealing with similar situations (writing policies), I encourage as much feedback as possible because I'm focussing on the best outcome (product). If feedback is &quot;filtered&quot; through the ego, which is easy to do, it blocks the priority which is to produce an excellent outcome. So, it's either an opportunity for an impoved product or an opportunity for education/increased awareness. They will be using the product (or policy) so that it needs to work for them.

 

[Ngolem]

Hi...I am new to this forum and I found this topic particularly interesting.

Contrary to a lot of IT personnel...I like working with the client. I write Crystal reports and nothing gives me more satisfaction than hearing praise for a report I have written.

I should say that I have been writting these reports as a contractor for about 2 years and 3 years before that on a full time developement team. At that time I was debugging a VB app and was given the job of fixing a CR report since no one wanted to get involved with a user since they never could make up their mind as to what was wanted.

Prior to starting my IT career I was a salesman/ salesmanager for 15 years selling scientific instruments. There I learned the art of probing to find out really what my clients wanted and then steer them into what I knew they needed.

This has been very successful for me in report writing. Too often developers charge off on the first ideas of a client, only to find out that they change their mind later when they see their ideas blossom.

That is why I listen...prod for detail...listen to their alternatives...until I get a good sense of what they want. Then I suggest a format and/or enhancement and get their buy into the report (it definately helps if you know something about the business problem to ask intelligent questions ... I am amazed at how many programmers don't...and I don't mean just the business rules of the App...they can be flawed).

Often the complaint &quot;the Client isn't listening&quot; is echoed from the other side of the table...Jim

 

[DarenNM]

Like the original post said - &quot;We are paid to give them what they want&quot;. The trick is to find out what it is they really want (and need!) and then (as other posts have said) write it down and get it signed off.

I know what it feels like to have a client not listen when they are asking for something you know will cause them problems. I tell the client a maximum of three times that I think it is a bad idea, being a little more insistent each time. After the third time I just say that as part of the code of practice I adhere to, I need them to sign a letter to say I have given them advice which they have chosen to ignore. That either gets their attention & changes their mind or else it gets me a signed waiver!

I have found in the past that nothing gives you more credibility than when the client ignores your advice and then wastes a lot of money on a system that doesn't work

Good luck

Daren

 

[heyitsthephoneguy]

We are not paid to &quot;give em what they want&quot;.

We are paid to give decision makers the information needed to make informed choices.

We are paid to implement these informed decisions.

Too many times IT tries to be the information provider & decision maker...

 

[DarenNM]

Sure we are paid to give them what they want. They are the customer, it's their money. If they want to spend it on something they don't need or isn't right for them, then that is up to them. You can advise them not to until you are blue in the face but you can't force people to take note of the information you give and you can only hope they make an informed decision.

If you feel really strongly that you shouldn't give them what they are asking for then you can leave them to do it on their own (which I have done before now).

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it back up its data

 

[CajunCenturion]

What you're paid for depends on the circumstances. If your an employee, then your paid to do what they tell you to do. In this case, it may not be up to you to determine if what they have told you to is what they want. If your a contractor, then your paid to deliver what the contract states that you must deliver. You can't guarantee that the contract accurately reflects their wants. If your a consultant, then your paid for your knowledge and/or advice. But its entirely up to the client how they will use that advice.

Under no circumstances can I agree with the statement that we're paid to give them what they want. We are paid to give them what they've asked for, which unfortunately, is not necessarily what the want. Hopefully, either yourself or an analyst has been able to direct the client in such a way as what they ask for, and what they want are consistent. Other posts in this thread has nicely addressed the role of the analyst and have also provide good guidelines with respect to milestones to help the client realize as soon as possible if and when what they've asked for is not what they want.

With respect to the issue of why doesn't the client listen very well, I don't have a clear cut right answer, but I can't help but be sympathetic to the customer when you look around the poeple in our profession and you see an MCSE who doesn't know to spell network, or someone with a degree from a community college and doesn't have a clue about the use of data structures. Then there's the CPA who sells him/herself as a IT consultant because they understand the balance sheet. Take a look at some of the questions and answers provided within the technical forums of this site. How many times have you said to yourself that the original poster really doesn't have a clue (but then that's why they're asking the question). Worse yet, how many outright wrong or very misleading or inefficient answers have you seen posted.

There are, on the other hand, many many professionals who do know what they're doing, but we cannot in all honesty say everyone in our profession knows what we're doing. (That's true for every profession, we're not unique.) But the next time the client/customer has reluctance to accept you on face value, consider what the previous IT professional may have said or done.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[DarenNM]

Hmm I think this may be a question of how we are interpreting &quot;want&quot; and &quot;need&quot;.

My experience is that they ask for what they think they want, which is not necessarily what they need. For example a manager who wants a high specification laptop PC with all the toys, bells and whistles when really they only need any old PC. If they insist on having the laptop PC because it is what they want, you can't really refuse and give them the spare PC from out of the cupboard. (Not if you want to keep your job!)

I've been in all three positions - employee, contractor and consultant. Strangely enough, people who didn't listen to me when I was their employee paid much more attention once I was a consultant. Strange but true

I hear what you say on the issue of competency. Our industry really isn't very different from any other e.g. builders, plumbers, etc. There is a lot of jargon, people who use the services don't always understand the technology and the terminology, you get good and bad people doing the work, some clients who do listen and some who don't.

As they say &quot;What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger&quot;.

Just keep your chin up!

 

[pl12987]

Whoa, this fine parsing misses the point. Anybody -- be they employee, contractor, or consultant, is paid for what they KNOW and can DO. For their skills and experience, and hence by implication for their ability to solve business problems with them. I don't think anybody and everybody can do I.T., last I checked. Now, if we are paid good money for what we KNOW and can DO, doesn't it make sense that our opinions ought to have some value? Shouldn't we be at least an equal partner in the problem-solving?

There is a big difference between a client not being able to articulate what they need, and ignoring professional advice.

Part of what we get paid for is working with the client to solve the problem, but we have to be *an equal partner in the process*. If we (or they) take the position &quot;we get paid for what they want/ask for&quot; then you might as well put a chimpanzee at the keyboard. Any moron can try to blindly execute orders, but if that is the level of fealty the client/employee demands, you should walk away. Fast. They don't want you or respect you: they want a chimpanzee.

 

[MISCHICK1]

I'm so with you....

I deal with users everyday who know it all. Yes, they are the experts and all we do is &quot;break&quot; their equipment.

I love it when we get phone calls like &quot;Were you in my office last night? You must've done something to my PC because it's got a black screen. I used it yesterday and I know I didn't do anthing to it.&quot;

Then I walk into their office and turn their monitor on...

 

[CajunCenturion]

As much as I would like to agree with you, nobody is paid for what the KNOW and CAN do. They are paid to perform a job. Your skills and experience are a factor is how much you get paid, but the act of getting paid is not based on potential (know and can do), but rather is based on production (what you are doing and have done).

You are correct, not everyone can do IT, but should be an equal partner in the problem solving? Depends on where the risk lies. Who has the ultimate responsibility for answering to the failures. As an employee, contractor, or consultant, you do not share in the feduciary responsibility to the stock holders, nor do you share in responsibility for insuring the viability of the enterprise. In IT, you may be responsible that the paychecks are printed out, but you are not responsible that the bank has sufficient funds to cover those checks. Once you're willing to accept equal liability and accountability in ALL areas of responsibility with respect to the enterprise, then, and only then, are you entitled to &quot;equal partnership&quot;.

IT plays an important role in most businesses, but the business does not revolved around us. And frankly, when you realize where you lie in the big picture, you'll probably get more respect because you'll show a greater understanding of overall situation. You will in turn, also be showing more respect for the others who have burdens on their shoulders that we are not aware of. Your opinion will become much more valuable, because now its known that its coming from a more realistic postion. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein