Politically (in)correct 11

[Trevoke]

Well, we can discuss this for hours, months, years, eons on end, but let's limit this to the current event : christmas.

Why on earth are people trying to take christmas away from the christians? December 25th *IS* christmas, and sorry to break it to you all, PC-people, but all these countries, built on christian roots, have a christian tradition.
I don't want to see "Winter break" or "winter holidays" or "whatever".
If you really, really want it to be done properly, remove the holidays altogether, because I really can't see why christians and jews would have off around that time of the year and other people wouldn't, or why people would have off when they don't even believe in the stupid happenings.
Establish a real calendar with all the holidays in the world, make people prove their religious affiliation, and then give off to people specifically for those holidays.
Now the madness is complete.

-Haben sie fosforos?
-No tiengo caballero, but I have un briquet.

 

[nicksims]

Thomas, I appreciate your thoughts. My manger comment (I really need to remember not to type on an empty stomach- my thoughts weren't quite complete and I didn't mean to arrogantly imply that my geneology can be tracked to the birth of Jesus) was meant to convey that we read, try to understand, and, naturally people of all faiths, and those within a faith will look at belief in their own way. None of us knows- we believe. Whether it be strict interpretation or looking at the meaning behind stories, we all look at things slightly differently, making the world quite interesting. This of course becomes a thoroughly new topic. Whew.

I did have a question- I wasn't aware of the Goodbye/God be with you connection. Can you shed some light on this for me?

Thanks.
Nick

 

[tgreer]

http://www.bartleby.com/61/20/G0192000.html

Thomas D. Greer

http://www.tgreer.com

 

[nicksims]

Thanks.
Nick

 

[GwydionM]

What about Yuletide? Everyone seems to have forgotten about this neutral term. Pagan in origin but adopted by Christian, the feast and the word and some customs. So the word itself is neutral.

See here and here and also here for more details. Learn about the Yule Cat and what some people do south of the equator, where it is the summer solstice rather than the winter one.



------------------------------
An old man who lives in the UK

 

[fumei]

The fact is, as has been pointed out, the mid-winter - and even THAT is technically incorrect, as it is really the START of winter.... - "season" has been used by many people for social reasons. This social event, as is common, became apotheosised.

Like all social events (and most languages), apotheosised or not, it evolves over time.

The Western (European/American) social events associated with the winter solstice are probably the most complex and varied of all the social "events". They have a hugely variant history and context. They are NOT, at all, completely associated with Christianity.

I find it truly amusing all the fuss about Christmas. It seems to me that any low level analysis would make it abundantly clear that the vast majority of interactions with the period around December 25 are commercially fabricated, fueled by consumption, and driven by social pressures.

Tell me why the incidents of:

suicide
murder
property crimes
spousal abuse
child abuse
divorce proceedings

all go up during the "season"? Oh, right, I forgot. It is Christmas.

Personally, I wish Christians would stop being politically correct. There is nothing wrong with being Christian - I mean other than it is equivalent to any other deity based belief system. Why should you, seemingly, have to be apologetic for it, when other faiths, seemingly, do not? Stop it!

But "Christmas"...sorry, but you lost that one many many many years ago. Too bad, but there you go. So - celebrate it as Christians - if that is what you are. Reflect on the Christ, reflect on (your) belief in redemption, etc. etc. etc. Help others.

But if it has ANYTHING - at all - to do with social interactions, be it parties, gatherings, dinners, gifts blah blah blah...sorry, but that seeped out any Christian meaning long before most of you here were born. The explosion of consumption wrought in the 50's (and which we shall reap for many years to come) started a social direction that is (probably) unstoppable. Too much of our way of life is based on it.

It is similar to computers. Could we go back? To being without them? Nope. It is now too late. It is impossible to go back. Can we go back to Christmas NOT being a purely secular consumption-driven event? Not a chance. It HAS changed. It IS a "holiday", and by no means a holy-day. It is in interests of maintaining "Christmas" as a social, consumption based event that a more inclusive verbalization be expressed. HEY! If it is "Happy Holidays" then...whoohoo!...more people will buy stuff.

And, sad to say, THAT is now, in fact (and has been, again for a very long time), the true meaning of Christmas.

Gerry

 

[SkennyR]

Well, Merry Christmas everyone.

Anyway.

 

[SilentAiche]

>>There is nothing wrong with being Christian - I mean other than it is equivalent to any other deity based belief system.<<

Whew, am I glad to know that: Thank goodness my Christ-based faith is okay with non-believers. What a load off my big ol' butt.

Question: Why is it that athiests/agnostics seem to be so much more schooled in Christianity than I am? I confess that I'm really not very schooled or learned in their beliefs or non-beliefs - I alway felt that was up to them, absent any comment from me (I have my own belief system, after all). I've never felt the urge to study (as a non-evangelitical Christrian) their belief/non-belief systems. Am I missing something? Was there a memo?

Or, perhaps, do we Christians just believe in something so "threatening" that they feel strongly about tearing it down?

If so, I'd feel a bit insecure in my non-belief system.

Here's an idea: I believe what I believe. Period. So do you. Period. We should respect each other's right to believe what we choose. Another period. Then, we meet at the local sports bar and we buy each other a beer/tea and hope neither of our teams loses. My modern "book" e-likes my odds.

[e.g., the Book of Matthew, the Book of Mark, the Book of Luke and the Book of John.).

Tim

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[CorBlimeyLimey]

I fully endorse your "idea", and like you (by the sound of it), actually live it.

I am an agnostic with an atheistic leaning. I am not arrogant enough to state that "There is no God", because I can't prove that there isn't. Several of my best friends (including my wife) are dyed-in-the-wool born-agains. Although they openly admit that they would dearly love for me to "see the light", we accept each other for what we are.

I'm sure many non-believers do feel threatened, but I don't understand why they should. I am very secure in my non-belief, but am simply inquisitive by nature.

Any discussion of beliefs is usually initiated by me. I have a yearning to understand what made them become believers. What was missing in their lifes? What had happened to them to cause such an idealogical shift? I'm guessing that the first part of your question was rhetorical, but maybe that will partly answer it anyway.

MERRY CHRISTMAS
(Unabashedly Politically Incorrect)

 

[tgreer]

To answer SilentAiche's question: I think because everyone inately starts out a "believer". Thus the process of becoming agnostic or atheistic is usually a path away from a particular religion or cultural belief system. That process would normally involve an in-depth examination of that religion. I don't find it surprising at all that an atheist would know more about a particular Christian denomination than the typical practioner of that faith.

As to what compels them to tear it down, so to speak, I think they feel they are "in the know", and ignorance disturbs them, the same way poor grammar disturbs this group. By "ignorance", of course, I'm referring to how the atheist might feel about a belief he's investigated and found to be lacking, not in the bible, or preached-not-practiced, and thus hypocritical.

It's a two-way street. Fundamentalist Christians feel compelled to tear down the theory of evolution, even though many are less informed about it than are scientists.

Most of us have political opinions, though we'd have to admit we don't know all the discussions, motivations, and ramifications involved in political decisions.





Thomas D. Greer

http://www.tgreer.com

 

[strongm]

>everyone inately starts out a "believer".

How so?

 

[Trevoke]

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with that sentence, too. I'm pretty sure that if we were to create a society with agnostics, children would not be born believers (unless of course you cound that as the belief that there's nothing, in which case, yes, everyone believes and there's no way around that).

I mean, I was raised christian catholic. It's what I say. I wasn't born Christian (although technically, when I got baptized, when I was a few months old, I was born again into the religion, is that right?). One can be born Jewish, but it's the people, not the religion.

Now I don't follow religions anymore.. I follow a Taoist philosophy and it keeps me content.

-Haben sie fosforos?
-No tiengo caballero, but I have un briquet.

 

[r937]

i faced this same issue in raising my kids

not being a believer myself, i nevertheless acknowledge that religion does provide many with comfort and hope, if not also morality and behaviour

so i thought about it for a while and decided that the kids might benefit from, how shall i say, non-denominational guidelines

from what i know about religious precepts, as well as just plain old common sense and good advice, i boiled everything down into these --

RULES
1. don't give up
2. no whining
3. be nice to everybody

the ten commandments are way too many (and some too obscure) for kids, so i wanted a shorter list that was easy for kids to understand

every time i've had to say something of a parental, corrective nature to the kids, it's always been like "i understand how you feel, but you're breaking rule #2"

in the intervening years, almost every time i've heard someone telling someone else what to do, it falls nicely into one of these three rules

and now that they are older, i like to think my kids have come to appreciate the importance of rule #1 being first, too







r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[Trevoke]

That's a really good setup and I think I may steal that for myself (well, with your consent of course!).

I was reflecting (I'm 23, not much else to do for me on the subject, thankfully) on what kids need to learn, need to know, to become 'educated' adults.. I came up with those two things:
1) Learn to learn
2) Learn to make choices

And then, while thinking on the parents, I figured the parents also needed to know when to let go of the kids, which means the parents need to adapt to the kids' maturity changing.

I think that with your rules, those are decent guidelines for kids (and then life gets in the way ;-) ).

"That time in Seattle... was a nightmare. I came out of it dead broke, without a house, without anything except a girlfriend and a knowledge of UNIX."
"Well, that's something," Avi says. "Normally those two are mutually exclusive."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"

 

[tgreer]

Every society ever discovered has worshipped. The Bible calls that a "spiritual need", and describes those concious of it as "happy".

I think it was the economic historian (and evolutionist) Arnold Toynbee who called this the "spiritual endowment of man", although he said it "condemned" man to a lifelong struggle for meaning, as opposed to making man "happy".

So while I'm not dogmatic on the issue, and am undecided on the nature vs. nurture debate, I think my statement that people are inately believers has historical merit.

Taken another way, it's easier to believe in "something" than it is to believe in "nothing". Most "believers" practice a blind faith (that's another controversial statement, I know, but ask yourself if you think it's not true!), so the atheist or agnostic sees themself as the seeing man in the land of the blind, obliged to point out all the pitfalls and obstacles.



Thomas D. Greer

http://www.tgreer.com

 

[tgreer]

themself=himself

We're in the "grammar" forum after all! We doesn't Tek-Tips have an "Edit Post" feature like every other forum?!

Thomas D. Greer

http://www.tgreer.com

 

[Trevoke]

tgreer : while it is true that every society ever discovered has worshipped (what did the Etruscans, or Etruscs, or how do you say, worship?), that does not mean every human is born believing.
I will however concede that every human may be born with a need, or a want, to believe.

We could go monstrously off-topic and start discussing whether we are born knowing there is something greater, and that while growing among humans, we forget what it is, but the memory haunts us and we need to create a belief to make up for that absence. Interesting theory, actually...

"That time in Seattle... was a nightmare. I came out of it dead broke, without a house, without anything except a girlfriend and a knowledge of UNIX."
"Well, that's something," Avi says. "Normally those two are mutually exclusive."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"

 

[Turkbear]

Hi,
People may indeed be born as 'seekers' but not necessarily as 'believers'...
Those who believe have stopped seeking..they think they have found it.
( Whether they are right or not is something we can never know for sure)







To Paraphrase:"The Help you get is proportional to the Help you give.."

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> We could go monstrously off-topic

You mean we're not there already?

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[Trevoke]

*looks around*
Cajun : oh, eep. I suppose so. Ah well, I truly hate to interrupt a fascinating conversation!

Turkbear: I like the idea of people born as seekers; which, in part, explains why I dislike children being forced into a religion, and why I would like to be able to teach my kids how to choose. How I'm going to do that, I have no idea, and I'm only gonna get one try to get it right (per kid)...

"That time in Seattle... was a nightmare. I came out of it dead broke, without a house, without anything except a girlfriend and a knowledge of UNIX."
"Well, that's something," Avi says. "Normally those two are mutually exclusive."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"

 

[CajunCenturion]

It is a good conversation and it doesn't need to end. I've enjoyed reading the various opinions. I just have to keep biting my tongue, remembering that I'm wearing a moderator hat for this one.

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Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein