hostedtelephone
Programmer
we have just put our 5000 user on our hosted system and we are seing sales of pabx drop like a stone. do you think the days of a piece of tin numberd when its so easy to install and maintain on hosted???
Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations TouchToneTommy on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
is the pabx dead 21
- Thread starter hostedtelephone
- Start date
- Status
- Thread starter
- #41
hostedtelephone
Programmer
you can have approx 8 concurent phone calls and as many phones as you like"
So hosted from what you’re saying I only pay for actual calls? You don’t charge per set?
no what i was saying is that you could have about 8 concurent calls on a normal broadband speed you pay per handset you have but that can grow and reduce as you need it.The outher benifit is you have unlimited incomming calls E.G you could have 1 phone that could take 1000 simaltanios calls at once. Now i know thats not a realistic senario but we have allot of sites with just a few handsets but they use voicemail at there busy period so your customer will never get a busy tone
So hosted from what you’re saying I only pay for actual calls? You don’t charge per set?
no what i was saying is that you could have about 8 concurent calls on a normal broadband speed you pay per handset you have but that can grow and reduce as you need it.The outher benifit is you have unlimited incomming calls E.G you could have 1 phone that could take 1000 simaltanios calls at once. Now i know thats not a realistic senario but we have allot of sites with just a few handsets but they use voicemail at there busy period so your customer will never get a busy tone
hairlessupportmonkey
IS-IT--Management
Indeed, G711 is supposed to "emulate" the quality of a 64K ISDN call. G.711 is less than 100K (64K + overheads) but when designing the network its best to over state your budget so 100K is a nice round number to add up with!
ACSS - SME
General Geek
ACSS - SME
General Geek
TL
R
Data is where the $$$$ are
Voice budgets suck
PBX manufacturers are migrating to make money, don't fool yourself. All other variables are secondary.
**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.
RData is where the $$$$ are
Voice budgets suck
PBX manufacturers are migrating to make money, don't fool yourself. All other variables are secondary.
**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.
Well hosted telephone.... the good thing is you believe in what you do.....
Now hosted and the good old PABX, or a new on site VOIP system can co-exist.
In the end ith will be the customer that will decide what best suits his needs.
Like cloud computing it is a matter of trust, some cases just can not be better done on-site,
like some things probarbly can be done better in a hosted way.
A hospital is a good example of a place where hosted is not such a good idea, they like to feel save and self-supporting with all kinds of back ups and redundancies. There main objective will be to have a full fualt tolerant system for their INHOUSE communications.
Another example could be a hotel, they have loads of rooms with phones, most of them analog. The phone is a service. No one calls with a room phone, they just make personal calls with the cell phone. A hotel struggels to make money, in the long run a onsite system with a bunch of analog phones is cheaper for them then the monthly costs for a bunch of ip phones from a hosted platform....
(and do not forget the integration to their PMS system)
Large factory sites, with loads of analog and digital phones spread over their campus using good old copper wire, cause the do not want ip. Offcourse wireless can be a solution.. but when you are in the chemical or petrol business you have to put safety first. So they use special phones that can not cause fires of explosions. And they use it primairily for internal comms, or the government wants them to have that all in place for safety purposes
What you say:
"The outher benifit is you have unlimited incomming calls E.G you could have 1 phone that could take 1000 simaltanios calls at once"
So if 5 of your customers on a regular monday morning at 10 AM receive a 1000 calls each, the hosted platform will have let say 10000 incoming trunk-lines, so the other 50 customers still have 5000 incoming lines available, but what if those 50 customers decide to make 200 outgoing calls each at 10:01 AM.... still nos busy-tone....
I agree very unlikely... but working on call centers for the last 20 years I kind of know something about non-blocking and erlang
I agree with you for a new startup, in agreenfield situation, or even smaller companies getting rid of their old PABX... yeah a hosted solution can be a good deal....
Now what if a company comes to you guys for lets say 1500 phones and mialboxes and enough capacity for those enduser to maka and recieve calls, they put in a contract for lets say 36 months.... and after 8 months they go belly up.... there CFO just cant crack the numbers, so the downsize and there are only a 100 people left in the company....so they reduce their sets to only a 100.... You guys just run in pick up 1400 used phones... do not charge them.... and hav a little over-capacity in your system????
if so.... let me know when you guys come to the european main land.... got some deals then
Please let me know if the information that was provided is helpfull.
Edwin Plat
A.K.A. Europe
Now hosted and the good old PABX, or a new on site VOIP system can co-exist.
In the end ith will be the customer that will decide what best suits his needs.
Like cloud computing it is a matter of trust, some cases just can not be better done on-site,
like some things probarbly can be done better in a hosted way.
A hospital is a good example of a place where hosted is not such a good idea, they like to feel save and self-supporting with all kinds of back ups and redundancies. There main objective will be to have a full fualt tolerant system for their INHOUSE communications.
Another example could be a hotel, they have loads of rooms with phones, most of them analog. The phone is a service. No one calls with a room phone, they just make personal calls with the cell phone. A hotel struggels to make money, in the long run a onsite system with a bunch of analog phones is cheaper for them then the monthly costs for a bunch of ip phones from a hosted platform....
(and do not forget the integration to their PMS system)
Large factory sites, with loads of analog and digital phones spread over their campus using good old copper wire, cause the do not want ip. Offcourse wireless can be a solution.. but when you are in the chemical or petrol business you have to put safety first. So they use special phones that can not cause fires of explosions. And they use it primairily for internal comms, or the government wants them to have that all in place for safety purposes
What you say:
"The outher benifit is you have unlimited incomming calls E.G you could have 1 phone that could take 1000 simaltanios calls at once"
So if 5 of your customers on a regular monday morning at 10 AM receive a 1000 calls each, the hosted platform will have let say 10000 incoming trunk-lines, so the other 50 customers still have 5000 incoming lines available, but what if those 50 customers decide to make 200 outgoing calls each at 10:01 AM.... still nos busy-tone....
I agree very unlikely... but working on call centers for the last 20 years I kind of know something about non-blocking and erlang
I agree with you for a new startup, in agreenfield situation, or even smaller companies getting rid of their old PABX... yeah a hosted solution can be a good deal....
Now what if a company comes to you guys for lets say 1500 phones and mialboxes and enough capacity for those enduser to maka and recieve calls, they put in a contract for lets say 36 months.... and after 8 months they go belly up.... there CFO just cant crack the numbers, so the downsize and there are only a 100 people left in the company....so they reduce their sets to only a 100.... You guys just run in pick up 1400 used phones... do not charge them.... and hav a little over-capacity in your system????
if so.... let me know when you guys come to the european main land.... got some deals then
Please let me know if the information that was provided is helpfull.
Edwin Plat
A.K.A. Europe
There's lots of things I can do remotely for a customer, but sometimes you need to go on-site. Hosted solutions rarely have field-trained technicians; they mostly have engineers and when you call to get service, you get the old "reboot the phone", reboot the router, etc. Unless you are deep in it, and then you get to level 1, level 2 and so on.
Plus if you talk flexibility, while on site, my customer can ask for a 100 different scenarios and I will get it going, because of what: personalized service; they will always see or talk to the same handful of people, not talk to one end of the country and another depending of the hour. We can train them to manage their system.
AS for updates, if it ain't broke, dont fix it. Patches are there to correct bugs; upgrades if you want a new feature. I'm not gonna cram an update down my customer's throat just because. My brother in law is using hosted, and he never talks to the last guy, and damn for 3 years all he wanted is to have his own MOH for publicity; can't do it!
As far as fire and flood, give me a break! They are insured, and if it burns down or I have water up to my thighs, I'm sure as hell I won't be installing a new system soon and am nowhere near their priority!!
If I troubleshoot, I can look within the same location at equipment, wiring, phones... etc I can test everything myself.
I guess it could be a viable solution for some small business; but look around on different forums; nowadays with VoIP, everyone is an expert in telecom; tons of small business will install a 3CX or Asterisk and buy phones on eBay, rather than pay us or you.
One other thing: let's say one of my customer wants to take his business somewhere else once their warranty/service contracted is expired: check the yellow pages or go on your system manufacturer's site and search for another certified installer. We don't handcuff anybody.
Plus if you talk flexibility, while on site, my customer can ask for a 100 different scenarios and I will get it going, because of what: personalized service; they will always see or talk to the same handful of people, not talk to one end of the country and another depending of the hour. We can train them to manage their system.
AS for updates, if it ain't broke, dont fix it. Patches are there to correct bugs; upgrades if you want a new feature. I'm not gonna cram an update down my customer's throat just because. My brother in law is using hosted, and he never talks to the last guy, and damn for 3 years all he wanted is to have his own MOH for publicity; can't do it!
As far as fire and flood, give me a break! They are insured, and if it burns down or I have water up to my thighs, I'm sure as hell I won't be installing a new system soon and am nowhere near their priority!!
If I troubleshoot, I can look within the same location at equipment, wiring, phones... etc I can test everything myself.
I guess it could be a viable solution for some small business; but look around on different forums; nowadays with VoIP, everyone is an expert in telecom; tons of small business will install a 3CX or Asterisk and buy phones on eBay, rather than pay us or you.
One other thing: let's say one of my customer wants to take his business somewhere else once their warranty/service contracted is expired: check the yellow pages or go on your system manufacturer's site and search for another certified installer. We don't handcuff anybody.
-
1
- #48
Much of the same rhetoric used in the early eighties to argue digital and analog is now used for (or against) IP.
--Consider, there are children being born today that will never need a 10 digit phone number or a traditional landline. Despite our technical understanding, talk, text, image and video are singly known as communication. The expectation is already there for a single device to be equally adept at disconnecting any media for urban, rural subscriber and business use.
Voice Quality
Dependability
Cost
These factors are reasonable but are only part of an assessment as is the limits of secondary or grey market support long after the manufacturer's have abandoned the product. Mistakes will be made both ways.
Five years ago I spoke to a student who complained bitterly about limited student loans and grants available yet thought nothing of a $700.00 cellular bill in one month. I replied, "I'm sorry, as a taxpayer, I'm insulted. There is no way we can possibly afford to send you to school. I haven't paid $700.00 a year for my residential phone service."
After 30 years of involvement in analog and digital communications; if a single wireless or fibre IP interconnection can facilitate talk, text, image, application and video, regardless of device (handheld, pc or gaming console) to assist me in work, educational access, personal communications and entertainment, sign me up and I'll gladly push the CS1000 off the loading dock.
KE407122
"The phone was working fine before it knocked over my coffee.
--Consider, there are children being born today that will never need a 10 digit phone number or a traditional landline. Despite our technical understanding, talk, text, image and video are singly known as communication. The expectation is already there for a single device to be equally adept at disconnecting any media for urban, rural subscriber and business use.
Voice Quality
Dependability
Cost
These factors are reasonable but are only part of an assessment as is the limits of secondary or grey market support long after the manufacturer's have abandoned the product. Mistakes will be made both ways.
Five years ago I spoke to a student who complained bitterly about limited student loans and grants available yet thought nothing of a $700.00 cellular bill in one month. I replied, "I'm sorry, as a taxpayer, I'm insulted. There is no way we can possibly afford to send you to school. I haven't paid $700.00 a year for my residential phone service."
After 30 years of involvement in analog and digital communications; if a single wireless or fibre IP interconnection can facilitate talk, text, image, application and video, regardless of device (handheld, pc or gaming console) to assist me in work, educational access, personal communications and entertainment, sign me up and I'll gladly push the CS1000 off the loading dock.
KE407122
"The phone was working fine before it knocked over my coffee.
- Thread starter
- #49
hostedtelephone
Programmer
As far as fire and flood, give me a break! They are insured, and if it burns down or I have water up to my thighs, I'm sure as hell I won't be installing a new system soon and am nowhere near their priority!!
its not about that its about disaster recovery and bussiness continuity. You tell me of any pabx that if the building burns down you can have the users up and running in 10 min in any location in the country keeping all there numbers and ddi numbers without any need to setup diverts.i can setup as many phones as you want in any area code in about 20 min you name me a pabx that you can do that on.
its not about that its about disaster recovery and bussiness continuity. You tell me of any pabx that if the building burns down you can have the users up and running in 10 min in any location in the country keeping all there numbers and ddi numbers without any need to setup diverts.i can setup as many phones as you want in any area code in about 20 min you name me a pabx that you can do that on.
BoskerTheArkite
Technical User
Seems to me that if my building burns down, I'm out of commission anyway, for days or weeks, until I can make some arrangements. So who cares about a 20 minute restoral.
On the other hand what if the building hosting my PBX burns down? I'm losing business because my phones are down for how long?
This thinking actually seems to sway me in favor of on-site.
You need assurances, and you need contingincy plans in either scenario.
On the other hand what if the building hosting my PBX burns down? I'm losing business because my phones are down for how long?
This thinking actually seems to sway me in favor of on-site.
You need assurances, and you need contingincy plans in either scenario.
- Thread starter
- #51
hostedtelephone
Programmer
Seems to me that if my building burns down, I'm out of commission anyway, for days or weeks, until I can make some arrangements. So who cares about a 20 minute restoral.
On the other hand what if the building hosting my PBX burns down? I'm losing business because my phones are down for how long?
This thinking actually seems to sway me in favor of on-site.
You need assurances, and you need contingincy plans in either scenario.
most of our customers would not agree with you as business continuity is critical in today’s market and if you can survive for weeks without talking to your customers I don’t know what business you are in. If the building our system is in burns down the UK will have more problems that just our phone system as its one of the main interconects for the UK internet and BT so if it burns down most of the country will be without phones or internet lol
On the other hand what if the building hosting my PBX burns down? I'm losing business because my phones are down for how long?
This thinking actually seems to sway me in favor of on-site.
You need assurances, and you need contingincy plans in either scenario.
most of our customers would not agree with you as business continuity is critical in today’s market and if you can survive for weeks without talking to your customers I don’t know what business you are in. If the building our system is in burns down the UK will have more problems that just our phone system as its one of the main interconects for the UK internet and BT so if it burns down most of the country will be without phones or internet lol
i can setup as many phones as you want in any area code in about 20 min you name me a pabx that you can do that on."
I just set up 250 phones in about 30 seconds.csv file, couple of templates and concurrent numbers not hard.
Next.
Stop comparing hosted with PBX's from a decade ago.
I have hundreds of users in different countries, let alone different area codes. What you are offering is nothing unique.
If a building burns down they just move to another location, big deal, this is the whole ruddy point of IP connectivity.
Of course I presume that when they are working from say an coffee shop, you are using VPN's to connect to your service, not just sending SIP traffic of the net.
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
I just set up 250 phones in about 30 seconds.csv file, couple of templates and concurrent numbers not hard.
Next.
Stop comparing hosted with PBX's from a decade ago.
I have hundreds of users in different countries, let alone different area codes. What you are offering is nothing unique.
If a building burns down they just move to another location, big deal, this is the whole ruddy point of IP connectivity.
Of course I presume that when they are working from say an coffee shop, you are using VPN's to connect to your service, not just sending SIP traffic of the net.
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
- Thread starter
- #53
hostedtelephone
Programmer
i can setup as many phones as you want in any area code in about 20 min you name me a pabx that you can do that on."
I just set up 250 phones in about 30 seconds.csv file, couple of templates and concurrent numbers not hard.
Next.
Stop comparing hosted with PBX's from a decade ago.
I have hundreds of users in different countries, let alone different area codes. What you are offering is nothing unique.
If a building burns down they just move to another location, big deal, this is the whole ruddy point of IP connectivity.
Of course I presume that when they are working from say an coffee shop, you are using VPN's to connect to your service, not just sending SIP traffic of the net.
so was that including the 20 day lead time for new ddi numbers???
how can they move to anuther location if its in a different city or country and what about there ddi numbers on the isdn e.t.c
no need for a vpn its encripted so no need to bugger about setting up vpn on laptops or smartphones
I just set up 250 phones in about 30 seconds.csv file, couple of templates and concurrent numbers not hard.
Next.
Stop comparing hosted with PBX's from a decade ago.
I have hundreds of users in different countries, let alone different area codes. What you are offering is nothing unique.
If a building burns down they just move to another location, big deal, this is the whole ruddy point of IP connectivity.
Of course I presume that when they are working from say an coffee shop, you are using VPN's to connect to your service, not just sending SIP traffic of the net.
so was that including the 20 day lead time for new ddi numbers???
how can they move to anuther location if its in a different city or country and what about there ddi numbers on the isdn e.t.c
no need for a vpn its encripted so no need to bugger about setting up vpn on laptops or smartphones
eddiebullman
Programmer
Hi
Well Hostedtelephone if you look at this thread you will notice something very important you are the only one on here defending hosted systems that should tell something about hosted systems
Well Hostedtelephone if you look at this thread you will notice something very important you are the only one on here defending hosted systems that should tell something about hosted systems
- Thread starter
- #55
hostedtelephone
Programmer
Thats because most engineers on hear have never worked on hosted and do not understand the true power and flexability of a hosted system
-
1
- #56
mattKnight
Programmer
Q - What telephony features does a hosted PABX offer that a on-site PABX does not?
A - None
Therefore there is no extra power.
Q - What flexibility does a hosted PABX offer that a robust on-site PABX does not?
A - None
As Sympology has pointed out, we can do everything that hostedtelephone claims with our own networks and chosen flavour of PABX. For example, the PABX I deal with is split across multiple data centres - at least as resilient as hosted.
Where hosted has a place is in the SME market place. In effect, outsourcing your telephony services, I can see that there are commercial reasons for this
Low capital investment - diverse PABX systems require substantial capital investment and many smaller companies cannot or do not wish to use their capital in this way. The Hosted Telephony supplier bears the roughly comparable capital cost
Low skill or no dedicated staff required - true diverse VoIP solutions require skilled management and technical resource, again costly and often hard to find. The hosted solution centralises this requirement and turns it into a service.
You pay for this on a month by month basis, as a service, and will be more expensive over time (as little as 3 years IIRC) You are also tied to the hosted choice of carrier and call tariff.
I think this is a case of horses for courses - it isn't a panacea for all telecoms ills, but it does have a place, but don't kid yourself the decision to go with hosted is a commercial one. The smart hosted provider knows who their vertical market is and targets that!
I would not like to run an entire telecoms service up a grotty ADSL internet connection with variable connection speeds and contention. Worse still no SLA for repair if it goes dicky!!
I'd like to add that when this thread popped up initially, I was expecting hostedtelephone to be spamming everyone with his company - and I am pleased to admin that I am wrong!
Take Care
Matt
I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone.
My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.
Give me a break you bunch of amateurs
All our numbers are non geographics , point to multiple ISDN 30's.
10 in a carriers DC in one site
10 in the same carriers site, but a different city
10 with a different carrier in a 3 rd
4 in a different country.
Oo lets not forget our direct links in our Mobile Providers DC as well
All non-geo's have INSTANT fail over (we see it all the time) to all the sites.
mattKnight
Programmer
Just to clear up any potential ambiguity in this...
The decision to move to a hosted telephone system is commercial only There is no compelling technical reason for it.
Hosted has been around for a very long time - it was just called centrex!
And thanks for the *
Take Care
Matt
I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone.
My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.
So if your business site did burn down, I take it you have a DR site with 100% capability? I mean if somewhere like say, Telehouse in Docklands did have, say a power failure (pfft like that would ever happen *cough*), you'd have 100% capacity in another geographically separate location.
Some of our major clients INSIST our co-hosting is in a different city, let alone different site.
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
-
2
- #60
itpphoneguy
Technical User
Hi hostedtelephone,
We sell this solution, it is not acceptable for any high reliability applications. The "tin on the wall" is actually highly reliable. Hardware for better systems will run 15 ~ 20 years with few problems. How long does the average PC run? If your outside connectivity goes down, you still have communications throughout the installation.
A telephone switch is just a computer, but it is a computer designed and built to much higher standards. No fans to fail for one. The other more insidious issue is that data folks have a different mind set than telecom people do. Data guys, on average, do not treat each call with near the same care that telecom people do. The entire concept of connecting a caller to another human is something they don't get. You would never have seen a system hang up on a caller when they press "0" before - ever. Now it seems to be acceptable? Hosted systems are run by IT departments, not telecom people. IT people do not understand the application and therefore do not do a good job on it. Understand that I'm talking on average here, not every single IT person.
When have you ever seen phone switches flooded where the flood didn't also take the data hardware on site out? These systems are generally installed in the IT rooms these days. That argument falls down once you realize that all the IT stuff died as well, so no comms. either way.
I know you are excited about this (not) new technology, but it isn't a wise choice in many applications. Also, digitized TDM type traffic only requires 64 KB/sec, so sucking up 100 KB/sec seems inefficient as well. In short, I can only see high risk coupled with short term satisfaction. I also noticed that you refute excellent, true comments. There is nothing for you to defend, you just need to take a realistic look at the world. You are not doing your customers any favours by selling a system that does not suit there needs. Even VoIP connectivity can by supplied to an existing analog system using SIP modems if required, so there isn't a good business case for removing their old equipment simply to sell them a set of expensive phones. That's called greed.
Go study real telephony. Once you understand it properly, you can apply these principles to your hosted solution and at least get that right. One size definitely does not fit all in these cases.
Just for the record, Nortel didn't sell anything off really. They went bankrupt. Their small business products, and even the BCM were not as reliable as competing systems either, and it was easy for me to switch out Nortel for Avaya products for a whole bunch of reasons. Then they went and died, darn.
-Chris
We sell this solution, it is not acceptable for any high reliability applications. The "tin on the wall" is actually highly reliable. Hardware for better systems will run 15 ~ 20 years with few problems. How long does the average PC run? If your outside connectivity goes down, you still have communications throughout the installation.
A telephone switch is just a computer, but it is a computer designed and built to much higher standards. No fans to fail for one. The other more insidious issue is that data folks have a different mind set than telecom people do. Data guys, on average, do not treat each call with near the same care that telecom people do. The entire concept of connecting a caller to another human is something they don't get. You would never have seen a system hang up on a caller when they press "0" before - ever. Now it seems to be acceptable? Hosted systems are run by IT departments, not telecom people. IT people do not understand the application and therefore do not do a good job on it. Understand that I'm talking on average here, not every single IT person.
When have you ever seen phone switches flooded where the flood didn't also take the data hardware on site out? These systems are generally installed in the IT rooms these days. That argument falls down once you realize that all the IT stuff died as well, so no comms. either way.
I know you are excited about this (not) new technology, but it isn't a wise choice in many applications. Also, digitized TDM type traffic only requires 64 KB/sec, so sucking up 100 KB/sec seems inefficient as well. In short, I can only see high risk coupled with short term satisfaction. I also noticed that you refute excellent, true comments. There is nothing for you to defend, you just need to take a realistic look at the world. You are not doing your customers any favours by selling a system that does not suit there needs. Even VoIP connectivity can by supplied to an existing analog system using SIP modems if required, so there isn't a good business case for removing their old equipment simply to sell them a set of expensive phones. That's called greed.
Go study real telephony. Once you understand it properly, you can apply these principles to your hosted solution and at least get that right. One size definitely does not fit all in these cases.
Just for the record, Nortel didn't sell anything off really. They went bankrupt. Their small business products, and even the BCM were not as reliable as competing systems either, and it was easy for me to switch out Nortel for Avaya products for a whole bunch of reasons. Then they went and died, darn.
-Chris
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question