Is the american dream still possible? 5

[Polu]

Hello.

I am from Spain. I am a Computer Engineer (5 years at University). I have worked for three years as a consultant in a major company all over Europe and Latin-America. It was a challenging and fulfilling job but too much overtime (+80 hours per week) and too much political crap. I designed systems handling millions of transactions per day and I was very proud of it.

After that I worked for two years in a Madrid based, english speaking, "one product company". I developed the product from version X to version X+N. It was a very stable company, I was well payed and I worked less than 35 hours per week. After some time I was sick to death because my job was not challenging at all. Once you learn the product, there is nothing else to challenge you, it is just a very repetive work.

Now I am working in the IT department of an english speaking, non-IT company. They planned to develop a big internal tool and hired some developers including me but now they have abandoned the project and I am doing support. I don't like support. I don't like it at all. A user called me in despair because "all her icons were missing". She tried to kill excel.exe and killed explorer.exe. This is the kind of things I am doing now

In the meantime, two years ago I started a PhD related to BioInformatics and Biotech. I will need at least another two years to complete it.

In the end, I have worked at a consulting firm, at a product company and at a non-IT company and none of these jobs have been good enough for me in the long term.

I feel I am at the top of spanish IT jobs. I don't think I am going to find a better job or to make more money in Spain. It's not gonna happen, my salary is more than double the usual for a developer in Spain. This is not a first class country as the U.S., UK or Germany so there are no better jobs, spanish job market for geeks is what it is.

At this point, I have the first big question: It is me? Do I expect unreasonable things from a job? Am I unable to keep a job? Will I be always tired and bored of any job after two years? Will I be hopping from job to job every two years for the rest of my life?

I don't give up, and I am still looking for the perfect job, but I have started to search outside Spain. In London or Amsterdam there are very compelling jobs. As a E.U. citizen I don't need any kind of migration paperwork nor visa or "green card" to work there. No doubt these jobs will be a big step ahead for me but, still, I think after may be five years and two or thee jobs in London I will find myself in the same place I am now: wishing a better job that is not availabe in Europe.

So I think I could skip the London experience and go straigh to U.S., looking for the american dream, looking for a exciting job and, may be three or four years later the opportunity to start my own company and (hopefully) conquer the world

At the U.S. I know I will be a H1B worker. My wife will move with me but we will be an ocean apart from our friends and family. London is just a two hours and a half trip from Madrid so we could be back for a weekend every now and then.

I have never been in the US so I don't know how it is for real but, acording to CNN, Hollywood and the Internet I feel a bit scared about my legal status and rigths over there as a foreigner.

So now my second and more importan question: Is the american dream still possible? Will I find exciting jobs there? Will I have the opportunity to reshape the world with my technology?

Please, any advive will be welcomed. Thank you all.

 

[Welshbird]

Wow - ideology can be really dfferent based on what you grew up with!

To me, and I know this is only my opinion, healthcare should not be private always. That would always limit who is included, and to me that just doesn't fit.

(BTW - I am purposely saying that this i only my opinion, as I have a really bristle when I read someone elses opinion written as a gospel truth - it may not be true for everyone guys! - It's YOUR opinion!!!!)

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[aarenot]

this is a forum, it is all opinion. i assume everyone knows this is my opinion. i would think it would be redundant to say, 'in my opinion', because everyone should know it is that without me having to say it.

by private, i mean the insurance provided by the private market sector, not the government. you know that competitive thing that drives efficiency. unfortunately the only thing governments do efficiently is to confiscate, redistribute, or waste the fruits of their peoples labors. oh yes, and make war. i mean look at the history of government, eventualy they get so bad they either fall apart, are overthrown, or peeve off their nieghbors so bad they attack them. history is full of the inevitable excess, domination of its citizens, rebellion, ineptness, injustice, or downright evil given enough time.

history has shown this to be the case.

You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[aarenot]

i would add, for those that can not work it should be made available free of charge. for those that do not, or will not work, it should be made available for doing public service.

also, as far as truth, i do not believe in personal truths. truth is truth, what we think or believe does not effect whether or not it is truth. if what comes out of a persons mouth is truth it is because they happen to agree with what is the truth. not because they said it, thought it, or believed it does it make it truth for them or anyone else.

in case you were not aware, this is my opinion, just to clear up any possible misunderstanding. it may be truth, if it happens to agree with the truth, but my saying it or thinking it does not in itself make it truth for myself, or for anyone else. good thing it works that way, or i might have to say or believe i am the supreme ruler of the world, and everyone else are my minions, and that would make it true for me, and possibly for everyone else.



You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[flapeyre]

We are all paying for our healthcare, even if you think the government is paying for it. They have to get that money from someone - that would be you and I (via taxes).

We in the US are not taxed as much as in most other industrialized countries. However, anyone who wants or needs healthcare can get it, regardless of their ability to pay. Until Katrina hit, we in New Orleans used to say that if you had a major trauma (bad auto accident, shooting, stabbing), the best place in the world to go was Charity Hospital. Completely free to everyone who walked in the door.

Sadly, Charity is no more; the building is too old and too far gone from storm damage - it would be cheaper to rebuild than to fix. The trauma unit is now a scaled down version located in the suburbs (right next door to my office, in fact).

I bought my house in 1988 for $75K. It's not very big, but it sits on 8/10 of an acre of land. The storm damaged it badly (two pine trees through the roof); in fact, I'm still not back there yet, but I'm getting closer. Between insurance and our own savings, it's costing me more to fix (and put in some major improvements) than we originally paid for it. I'm not complaining, because home prices here are close to geosynchronous orbit right now (evacuees from the other New Orleans suburbs that were harder hit than us).

Feles mala! Cur cista non uteris? Stramentum novum in ea posui!

 

[gbaughma]

Healthcare is a bit of a sticky spot for me.

Didja know....
Many drugs (like Tylenol) are given to the hospitals for FREE? (That way they can justify their commercials about "9 out of 10 doctors use Tylenol")... then the hospital charges the patient $10 a pill. No, that's not a made-up number. I used to do data entry in a hospital itemizing the bills.

$10 for a tylenol.
$5 for a 39-cent BIC disposable razor.....

Of course, if you have INSURANCE, that all gets charged to them. But they don't give you a discount if you DON'T have insurance. Because if they did, then the insurance companies could (rightly) say that they were being ripped off.

I'm sorry, but I think there *should* be some regulation on hospitals and their pricing structure.

They charge the insurance companies an arm and a leg, and in turn, premiums go through the roof for workers.



Just my 2¢

"In order to start solving a problem, one must first identify its owner." --Me
--Greg

http://parallel.tzo.com

 

[aarenot]

ther are regulations for health care prices, my post mentioned some of them. the reason that the prices are higher is that those that pay for insurance pay higher prices to make up for the losses mandated by that government regulation for the medicare, medicaid, and the 'we dont pay' so we get it free patients.

if you work, and have insurance through your work you do pay for that insurance through the work you render. the employer does not pay that for you, unless ofcourse they would keep paying for it, if you quit working for them.

also, the health providors mark up the costs to paying customers to cover their losses on those that as the government mandates, do not pay. in other words, for the ones who take a discount by government mandate. it is really pretty simple.

if the government paid the full price, insurance cost would come down. if everyone who gets services was docked pay for insurance, the price for insurance would come down, since everyone was paying, so no losses to make up on the paying customers. you are paying for those that do not pay, one way or another.

i am not saying deprive people of health care, just force insurance on everyone, based on their ability to pay, and force them to go to a doctors office where the cost is lower than an emergency room. that would spread the cost out over everyone, and force services to options other than the highest cost providor, the emergency room.

You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[Pampers]

Buenas, Polu
The American Dream doesn't exists. It is an invention for a society with huge income differences, so the poor will keep the threadmill going. It is the carrot in front of the horse or donkey, whoever reaches it first. And mind you, USA is not a first class society, like Norway, Germany, Brittain, Sweden, Finland, Holland, Switserland... If you travel through the USA you will see that very clear. To get a complete picture, visit New Orleans on a day/night trip. I would suggest you go to the nothern european country's to extend your career, and visit USA on holidays, because it is beautifull!!

Pampers
Keeping it simple can be complicated

 

[aarenot]

glad you did not include france in there. the unemployment there is incredible.

in the usa society is a bit different.

we have those that if they were taken care of in a more than basic needs fashion they would never get out of bed, sober up, or do anything to attain skills beyond those of the minimum personal investment/skill/wage job.

there are so many that believe that they should not study hard in school, get a formal, or informal education or knowledge base, develope a skill, trade, or invest in a value added ability for their employment. yet they should make a wage, or recieve an entitlement that allows them to live at the same standard of living of those that do these things. they feel the american dream should be handed to them because they deserve it simply by being in america, and they feel those that have made these sacrifices should pay for those which do not.

look at the minimum wage in the usa for instance. staticstics say that over 90 percent who make this wage have not even completed the investment in a high school education. that 75 percent of those that start at the minimum wage increase their wage within one year via the same employer who gave them the minimum wage opportunity in the first place. yet they still expect, and there is a large political quid pro quo for your vote support for giving these people a mandatory increase in pay which would support them in a confortable, middle class lifestyle, regardless of if they do anything to increase the value they add to their own resume through hard work, or skill attainment like the 75 percent who take minimum wage jobs already do within the first year and get their own raise.

that is the same thing as walking into a persons house who has spent his carreer investing in his skills, bettering his knowledge, increasing his value as an employee, or service providor. then asking him if can give you two tens for a five, and being mad when he doesn't see why he should, just because he has more money in his wallet than you.
sad state in the usa, but it is the reality. until we are rid of the attitude that we do not have to work for our keep, and improve our knowledge in order to improve our benefits in life, we will never be a 'first class' society.
from those according to their means does also include according to their ability to produce.

 

[KornGeek]

After reading the posts in this thread, all I can say is Wow, it must be nice to be able to sit on your high horse and pass judgement on all those beneath you.

It must be nice to be able to categorize all those who earn less as lazy leeches on society.

I myself moved out of Silicon Valley a year ago because housing prices had skyrocketed to unreasonable levels, and I moved somewhere I could afford to buy a home in order to build a better future for my family. At the time, I had stable employment that didn't pay well, but allowed me to get by.

Shortly after moving, the terms of my employment changed to the point where I could no longer continue working there. I left my job and sought employment in my new area. I treated job hunting as my full-time job. I signed up with every temp agency in the area, and sought side projects. I worked many temp jobs, making the customers happy, but never able to land anything stable in their companies. I went on many interviews, only to be a close second choice (largely because my previous employer didn't keep up with changing technology, so I lacked professional experience in the new technologies and being self-taught wasn't sufficient).

My wife began working providing daycare for a friend's child earning below minimum wage, because the friend can barely afford what she's paying. My wife also went to work in a retail environment earning minimum wage because she has been a stay-at-home mother, and despite running a household, companies view her a unqualified for much of anything. Also, she can only work this job part-time because the amount of money child care would cost would exceed her earnings. Thus, she can only work when I'm home from my job. (Leaving us with very little time together.)

Our house is nice, but we definitely have to lock the doors at night. This apparantly doesn't keep somebody from coming in through a window when we're out of town because I'm working for my previous employer for a weekend.

When we could no longer afford to pay our mortage, health care premiums, and pay for food (never mind gas, etc.), we had to discontinue our health insurance. When our savings continued to fall, we swallowed what little remaining pride we had and asked for public assistance (which if you've never done it is a time consuming and humiliating experience) only to be told we make too much money to receive anything, including MediCal (California's public health insurance program). We were told to apply for Healthy Families, and low-cost health insurance program. Healthy Families told us that we earned too little to qualify, so we should apply for MediCal. Rinse. Repeat.

And ANYONE can get hospital care in the United States, even without insurance. And NO child under 18 HAS to go without insurance because they can be covered by the state if the parents would sign them up.

Unless you're my kid apparantly.

Finally we received assistance that kept us from losing the house. From my aunt and uncle. Fortunately, the state had already taken our pride and dignity, otherwise we would have lost some here.

After nearly a year of job hunting, I finally recieved an offer. It's for less than I was earning before the move, but they agreed to give me a review with eligibility for a raise after 6 months.

It's refreshing to hear that the reason we're not better off is that we're just too lazy and want to leech off the system. Thanks.

 

[gbaughma]

KornGeek:

I feel your pain, dude.

I was having a hard time making it in the Chicago area. Been there, done that, been on public aid, food stamps, but even when I was surviving on $400 a month with 3 children, I never filed for bankruptcy. It was my ownly dregs of pride left.

I've begged for food from catholic charities, as well as other churches.

Now, I'm doing all right, but I never forget that I'm essentially two paychecks away from being in the same spot.



Just my 2¢

"When I die, I want people to say 'There was a wise man' instead of 'Finally, his mouth is shut!'" --Me
--Greg

http://parallel.tzo.com

 

[AlexCuse]

Pampers - while your outlook may be a bit cynical, I think you are right about the American dream being something of a carrot dangled in front of the horse. However, I know people who have moved here (legally) from Great Britain, and they said that the opportunity here for them is much greater than it was at home. There may be greater income equality there, but that does not necessarily equate to opportunity.

KornGeek - while I don't have any children, and can't really relate to your story, I have had trouble getting by on a less than adequate salary before. I hope that your new position represents a significant improvement for you and your family.

Aarenot - While I agree that there are a lot of Americans who are lazy, and think that the world should be handed to them simply for being an American, I find some of your remarks extremely ignorant. Especially this one:

yet they still expect, and there is a large political quid pro quo for your vote support for giving these people a mandatory increase in pay which would support them in a confortable, middle class lifestyle

Have you thought about the minimum wage lately? And about the 'middle class' people struggling to get by on several times the minimum wage? Where I live anyway (Southeastern PA), it would be nearly impossible for someone to afford a decent studio apartment (not to mention food, transportation, electricity, etc...) on their pre-tax earnings. Even the 'slum' type of apartments would be difficult for them to afford. If the minimum wage were doubled, it would still by my estimation not be enough for someone to live in this area comfortably. I'll admit that not many places around here pay minimum wage, but it's not like $6.25 an hour is that much better (I believe that is what our minimum wage is being raised to in 2007, and more reflective of what the average pay is for a burger king or wawa type job in the area).

I have a very close friend who made the investment in himself, and went to college even (didn't finish because of family issues, but still spent a couple of years) that is stuck making close to the minimum wage. Excellent reward for wanting to take care of a dying father huh?

You should think a little (or at all) before you judge people. Just because you are better off doesn't make you better.

Alex

A wise man once said
"The only thing normal about database guys is their tables".

 

[aarenot]

korngeek,
i am sorry to hear of your perils, and i do truly identify with you in many ways. i am a husband, and father of three. as little as 4 years ago i have been jobless, homeless within that time as well, and also, pride is over rated anyway, unless you are looking for something to go before your fall. i will assume that the statement that i made was not what you were refferring to as you obviously do not meet the criteria i set forth in it any way.
i have recieved aid, and help from unemployment insurance [25 years paying in, 6 months taking back], food stamp programs, and others, as we were poor enough at the time to recieve their help. being partially employed, after unemployment, having no benefits, a wife, and three kids is not the best situation to come home to see your house on fire. especially when the homeowners insurance had lapsed for need of food. couple of benefits were there though like quitting smoking for food, coming closer together as a family, and becoming stronger as a person. i also, unlike previously do not waste my money so readily on things that are not food, shelter, and clothing. i realized that i had wasted tens of thousands of dollars on things over the decades foolishly, which had i not done so, i would not have been hurting at all during this time. i will not put myself in the situation of living beyond, or even within my means, and not looking at my budget as a 5 year plan. in my 5 year plan, it includes one year of unemployment, and so i have a different perspective, which is less than a best case scenario employment level.
i sold all the toys which i should not have purchaesd in the first place without my 5 year plan covered first, with one year of unemployment included. cut up a big pile of firewood for the fireplace, when i was not working. we also gave up spending next months mortgage on this months fun and games, we have slid that down to spending the 6th months mortgage on fun and games this month.
also, if you were the type i mentioned, you would not be trying to advance other than by trying to get the minimum wage raised. the other type i mentioned was those which do not even look for work.
i think you know these exist, and my approach is this. notice the word will, and not the word can is key to this statement.
he who will not work, shall not eat.

can not is different, i have spent easily 7,500 hours in the last decade alone as a volunteer giving my time to the community for the can nots. mostly working with single parent households with mentoring programs, food bank services, shut in food delivery, delivering groceries, victim advocate, home repair, child care, business donation request calls, and working the feed line in the homeless food kitchen. all while working full time except my unemployed period of one year.
i have seen myself taken advatage of by those i serve in these programs, doing just what i have mentioned. dropping 100 dollars at the bar the night before coming to the food kitchen to feed their kids. no food money, but they are high when they come in for help. can not pay the bills, but drive a nice cadilac, and wear all designer clothes. i have seen it myself, so there is no sense in arguing it with me. you see, i may spout off about the problem, but i am part of the solution, therefore, not part of the problem.
now just because i give my time does not mean i do not also give the less important thing, i also get an nice irs audit frequently for giving more than 10 percent of my gross for charitable contributions to local charities.

i am sure you do not, as i qualified my statement previously.

'never get out of bed, sober up, or do anything to attain skills.'

i identify with the having to prove your need, and the pride it can bruise when getting aid. i felt bad enough about my situation without having to go admit it to get help. then be questioned about it, and prodded, and looked into while being considered, and quizzed. it was less than fun to say the least. in hind sight, they have a job to do which is to protect those that need help by safeguarding the resources from those who would fraudulently steal it.

 

[KornGeek]

aarenot,

My point is that just as I have my story (and I admit there have been places where we've spent money that in retrospect were very bad ideas), everybody has their own story.

I don't feel that we are in any position to judge people just because we are getting by in life. I've recently been under that microscope by friends, family, and strangers. I personally don't want to be on either side of it.

I doubt many (if any) of the people you mentioned would describe themselves as taking advantage of the system. Considering the amount that "the system" pays out (if you somehow qualify) and the amount of effort that goes into applying and staying qualified, I have to doubt the alarmist claims that there are multitudes who are milking the system to live a life of luxury.

As far as the immigrants sending their money to their family in another country, how many of them does it take to equal one tech job that gets outsourced?

We live in a society that is dependant on cheap labor. Many immigrants (legal or more commonly illegal) provide this labor often for below minimum wage. We as a society depend on this to keep prices down. (Imagine how much a salad bar would cost if all of the labor picking the vegetables was paid a fair wage.) I think it's rather hypocritical to enjoy the fruits of this labor while at the same time blaming our woes on it.

I don't have any facts or figures on this, but it is my belief that the impact of all illegal immigrants on our economy is far less that the impact of sending employment into other countries. However, this seems to be a widely defended practice. Is it possibly because the people outsourcing jobs have more wealth and influence than the immigrants? No, surely that has nothing to do with it.

Oh, and in regards to the lack of drug smugglers coming in from the Canadian border, wasn't it only a short time ago that alleged terrorists were caught trying to bring explosives in from Canada? Surely explosives used to harm others are far worse than drugs that people use to harm themselves. Should we now barricade that border? What about the people in the UK that were allegedly planning to bring liquid explosives onto planes? Should we start keeping out Europeans too? Should we just close our borders to insure that nobody comes in to do us harm, either with direct attacks or by sending their hard-earned dollars out of the country?

Normally, I stay out of these discussions, but the opinions expressed in this thread did not sit right with me, and since I wasn't seeing much reaction, I felt I had to say something.

 

[aarenot]

alex,
thanks for your feedback. i am not sure that you are aware that over 90 percent of minimum skill/wage jobs are given to highschool kids, not adults. they do not need a living wage, and they may possibly earn one, depending on the teen. even the highschool kids, 75 percent get a raise within the first part time job year, so i find it hard to concieve any applied adult without some disabilities would be making min skill/wage rates. seriously that leaves 10 percent of the min wage/skill jobs possibly being adults in them.
now a living wage is different from the min wage. that is a different subject, and the two are not even related. a living wage is what it takes to have what, 2 cars, 2 car garage, eat out for 2 meals a day.

to my dad it meant 4 walls, roof that did not leak much, heat above 55 degrees, water from down the hall, used clothes mostly, no air cond., pbj sandwich for lunch at work, with some other left overs, a jug of water brought from home that was kept out of the sun so it was not too warm. getting a ride to work so mom could have the car for the day, and a push lawn mower. by push, i mean when you push it, the wheels drive the gears to make the blades move, and cut the grass.
before a discussion about a , lol, living wage can begin, it has to be defined. does it include cell phones, cable tv, satelite, internet, eating out 14 times a week. or are we talking about living within our means like our parents did, if they are that old. paying cash for cars, 20 percent down on a house, saving for your kids college, rummmage sales, second hand stores. not using credit cards unless you pay them off before interest is due, etc., etc. or are we talking comfortable luxury and style in living.

 

[KornGeek]

These days, I think having internet access is just as necessary as a home phone line. I can't imagine trying to do my job hunting while relying on library internet access. Heck, most of the time, I didn't even get started until well after the library closed (after working a temp job during the day, feeding and bathing the kids, and then putting them to bed).

As far as my cell phone goes, that is what I used to allow potential employers to get ahold of me. Also, it allows my wife and I to reach each other in case of an emergency with one (or more) of the kids. And I'm not talking about a hypothetical emergency like "just in case the car breaks down". I'm talking about the things like "your daughter got ahold of one of your razors and I can't get her lip to stop bleeding." You know, the things that happen all the time when you're a parent.

We may rely on things that our parents didn't have, but that doesn't make them less necessary in the modern environment.

Oh, for the record, we have a push mower. Our neighbors have on more than one occasion taken pity and loaned us their gas powered one, though.

 

[KornGeek]

As far as the original topic goes, yes, I think the American dream is still possible. As long as you're not an immigrant from Mexico, or Central or South America, in which case this country doesn't seem to want you around. (The government and vocal majority at least.)

 

[KornGeek]

Sorry for 3 posts in a row, but I think I need to excuse myself from this discussion for awhile. I can feel my blood pressure rising, which is not good with no life or health insurance.

I recently joked to my wife that I could earn more money through social security benefits by having a stroke or heart attack and dying. She didn't see the humor. Neither did I when I checked the numbers and found I was right.

 

[aarenot]

korn,
my comment about my wasting my own money was just an admition of my own responsibility for some of my plite, not intended to be toward anyone else. just being honest with, and about myself. i did help create my own situation.

i was speaking of, and qualified my speech as to refer to those which

'never get out of bed, sober up, or do anything to attain skills beyond those of the minimum personal investment/skill/wage job. '

that was the target of my speech, and was not referring to those which are not in this group. we all agree this group exists. we may differ in our experiences of how many, how few, or how to deal with this, but we all know they are there. it is not judging to say they exist, it is just reality. it is wrong to judge those that will not work, it is also wrong to feed them by force from those that do work. that is all i am saying.

it is also reality that min wage jobs go to those who have few employment skills as a rule, with few exceptions. that is not judging the person with few employment skills, it is apparent on their resume, and not a judgement of the person, or their humqan worth. it does not effect their value as a human being in one way or another.

jobs pay for employment skills not worth as a person, or a human. they are not in any way dependent on each other for their value.

 

[AlexCuse]

Aarenot - thanks for the reply. I especially appreciate your differentiation between the 'can nots' and the 'will nots' (my fiance is a psychologist/social worker so I hear nightly tales of both). This makes it much more clear to me what you were saying to begin with (and I would not have disagreed)

I am aware of that 90% statistic, and agree that there should be a way to separate high school kids with a summer job from people who really need to make over the minimum wage. But then what about the kids who need to work, so that their family can survive? It is hard for me to decide where to draw the line on this.

If you (and others) are game, I would love to have another thread dedicated to discussion of what a 'living wage' should be. Not sure what forum to start it in. Are you a member of Squaring The Circle? If not, we can start it here and discuss in depth.

KG- I don't have home internet access, and I agree that it is almost a necessity these days. I like it at times (like when it's an excuse for not being able to work from home), but it drives me crazy most of the time. I don't want to pay evil empire (comcast), and verizon dug up my whole backyard to put in fiber optics months ago (but has yet to offer me any service). It really puts a damper on the 'fun' programming stuff I can do at home. Someday, I will rejoin the 21st century though (I hope )



A wise man once said
"The only thing normal about database guys is their tables".

 

[aarenot]

korn,
dial up is really good enough for a job search. at least i landed my job installing ip telephony systems with it. it was set to kick me off the net when a incoming potential job related call came in. only one phone though, i could not afford two. i did upgrade to a cable modem once my new jobs work duties required broadband access. i also replaced my windows m.e. o.s. home pc this year, as i am a technology proffessional. i did get it on sale though, and pretty cheap, since i waited so long, i had time to find a deal.
also, i used a push mower for 6 years, so i feel for you.

alex,
if you want to start a thread defining a living wage, and a min wage feel free. i would probably respond. the two are nothing like each other in reality, as one brings labor to the marketplace, and the other education, skills, training, knowledge, or experience in order to secure revenue from customers to justify itself.