How best to get ahead in the world 3

[KornGeek]

Some say that hard work and dedication are the best ways to get ahead in the world. Others say that politics and manipulation are more effective.

Do nice guys really finish last? What are your thoughts?

 

[shoalcreek]

Accepting help does not make a person a manipulator. In fact, as MDXer pointed out, often times the assistance is earned through ability, work ethic, etc.

The point is that people help him, and it appears that he gives very little in return.

The flips side of this is that a talented person who completely lacks social skills will also have a difficult time advancing. Offending and/or alienating others will not get you very far.

You have just proven my point. All successful manipulators have good social skills. Most people who have good social skills use them to manipulate others.

Based on what I have studied on manipulation, there is one other key factor involved here. Over 80% of manipulation is non-verbal. It's not the words. It's body language, vibe, voice, pacing, tone. I remember years ago I interviewed for a job. Toward the end, the interviewer said to me: "You have a very soft handshake." I didn't get the job, and it ultimately wasn't right for me anyway. I still enjoyed meeting him and consider him a friend many years later.

 

[sleipnir214]

I do have one question about Huntsman: Why would a supposedly honest man ever work for Richard Nixon?

From a transcript of and episode of the Glenn Beck show which aired 2007-12-25 (link):

HUNTSMAN: No, I did work in the Nixon White House, and it was a great honor, I might add. It was during Nixon`s first term, and I`d been in the Department of Health, Education and Welfare. I was asked by Bob Hall to shift into the White House as White House staff secretary and special assistant to the president.

And when I was there, Bob Haldeman, of course, was my -- was my mentor and boss. And Bob came in one day and he said, "Jon, we want you to make a phone call to one of your plants out in California, your manufacturing plants, because we`re looking at somebody who we`re going to appoint to a senior position."

And -- and so I made the phone call. And then he came in a little later and he said, "Now we have the opposition. The other party`s candidate is going to put someone up for an office, and we`re looking to clear their candidate. And we want to get all the dirty material we can on this person. Your plant is located near them out in Southern California. Will you call your manager and check out all the negative information you can on this person?"

And my instincts told me immediately, do what your boss tells you to do. Go forward and do whatever it is to move up the organization ladder. In this case it was the White House staff. It could be the corporate staff. It could be a small business, could be anything, Glenn.

And so I immediately went to the phone. That`s our visceral reaction, I think, as human beings, to go immediately and do what we`re asked to do. And so I made the phone call, and right during the phone call, the thought occurred to me -- I think my moral compass kicked in, because we each have a moral compass. We`re given it by God. We have it at birth. Every human being, irrespective of their religion, their background, their nationality, they have this great moral compass that kicks in and they know what`s right and what`s wrong. They may not think they have it, but they have it.

And I thought to myself, what am I doing? I`m asking my civilian associates to go look at -- find some dirt on some people in the opposing political party.

And so I said immediately, "Jim, forget I ever called. Don`t do what I asked you to do. This is wrong. Forget it. I`m sorry I called."

I think it was the moral compass kicking in.

The guy refused a request of the POTUS' Chief of Staff when that request went against his moral sense. While that's not direct evidence of honesty, I would accept it as a telling view into his general character.


Want to ask the best questions? Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". TANSTAAFL!

 

[KornGeek]

This is a good point. How does one get a good reputation? How does one get people to speak positively of them?

By working hard, doing quality work, having a positive attitude, demonstrating ability, helping others, etc.

A friend of mine started as a desktop support technician who barely had enough computer knowledge to do that job. By being eager and willing to learn and offering to help wherever he was needed, he quickly advanced in his company to become a well-respected (for both work ethics and knowledge) individual who is highly skilled in network technologies. He has received numerous promotions, raises, bonuses, and acknowledgements. He turns to those with more experience and knowledge when he needs assistance, and offers assistance to those who need it in turn.

The point is that people help him, and it appears that he gives very little in return.

Actually, the quote was in reference to people who have received help to get jobs. The point had nothing to do with your nephew.

You have just proven my point. All successful manipulators have good social skills. Most people who have good social skills use them to manipulate others.

Again, your logic is flawed. Nothing of the sort was proven. Just because people who lack social skill fail to get ahead does not in any way prove, indicate, or even imply that those who get ahead use manipulation. What it implies is that those who get ahead posess social skills.

I find your assertion that most people who have social skills manipulate others to be cynical at best and potentially sociopathic. I think that is a big claim to assume with no evidence offered.

Based on what I have studied on manipulation,...

The very fact that you study manipulation may best explain your position. I would guess that either you believe that manipulation is the solution, thus you study it to be better at it, and/or you study it thus you see it where it might not necessarily exist.

 

[SantaMufasa]

I think this debate would be better served by incorporating examples of people that we actually know something about--people we know in person, not people we read about in newspapers.

Shoalcreek, we don't need to "actually know something about--people we know in person" to discern their integrity, their characteristics as a person. As Huntsman said in the Glenn Beck interview:

...we each have a moral compass. We`re given it by God. We have it at birth. Every human being, irrespective of their religion, their background, their nationality, they have this great moral compass that kicks in and they know what`s right and what`s wrong. They may not think they have it, but they have it.

My moral compass has told me a great deal about the people who have participated in this thread, without my ever having met them personally. I can tell, by the statements people have made here, and the questions they have asked here, which people I could, or could not, trust in important situations.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[kmcferrin]

I've kinda sat back and watched this thread for a couple days just to see what would happen. I'm sure everyone here probably knows that you (Shoalcreek) and I are pretty much diametrically opposed in what you're saying here. Frankly, I think that you've presented frightfully little evidence of to support your claims, but that's just my opinion.

All I can really say is that there are quite a few people here who seem to be satisfied that working hard, doing the right thing, and capitalizing on opportunities to better ourselves are the best way to advance our careers. You seem to think that it's all about manipulation and using people. There are a fair number of us here who believe it's about learning and developing career skills, and making a good name for ourselves. You seem to think that it's about studying manipulation and neurolinguistic programming to "game" the system.

But when you look at the people on either side of this discussion you see some very distinct differences. You have on the "hard working" side a group of people who by their own admission have a great deal of career success, including significant promotions, raises, and career advancement.

On the "manipulation" side of the discussion you have one person who claims that they have "the answer" to getting ahead, but by their own admission has met with little career success, has only managed to increase their salary from $30k to $42k over the course of 10 years, has trouble finding work and generally comes across as extremely unhappy and negative about working in IT.

To any impartial third party I would submit that the "hard working" side has it right. The people here pushing the "hard work" theory aren't doing it out of blind faith in some philosophy that they believe in. We're pushing it because we've seen it work for us and others. On the other hand you're pushing the "manipulation" theory based on your experiences with a deadbeat cousin, some guy who freeloaded off of a stripper, and your own apparently unsatisfying career. I would call none of your cases an example of successfully "getting ahead" in the world, at least not by any standard that I wouldn't be ashamed to consider success.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[ousoonerjoe]

My old man said it best, "You cannot help those that will not first help themselves." He's right. I will not do something for someone, but I will help them complete it as best as i can. Manipulators don't like this philosophy, but there is something to be said about being able to take pride in work you completed yourself. It doesn't matter if you got help, but if someone else did it for you, then how proud can you be? If Bob did the project and you put your name on it, you think Bob's gonna be happy with you? You think your boss isn't going to figure it out eventually? When you begin to take advantage of others, they begin to resent you and creates a miserable situation for all involved. Your boss is going to strip away any trust he had in you, Bob's not going to be anything more than civil, and what have you learned that you can take with you to the next position (because at this point you'll be looking)?

"If I were to wake up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised than I am right now.

 

[shoalcreek]

The guy refused a request of the POTUS' Chief of Staff when that request went against his moral sense. While that's not direct evidence of honesty, I would accept it as a telling view into his general character.

That's a nice story. I bet he didn't last long in the Nixon White House.

Anyway, I still don't think your example holds any water. I do think that starting and owning successful businesses does require hard work and the virtues that Huntsman appears to advocate. When you own a business, you never have a performance review. You are already at the top, so you never end up lobbying for a promotion. I know some business people myself, and many of them have a great deal of passion for what they do.

I'm talking more about employees and people who are working for others. That is what most IT professionals do. They interview for jobs. They look for jobs. They have to convince people to promote them or give them raises. They sometimes find themselves out of work.

In many cases in IT, a person has to move out in order to move up. On a personal note, four of my past employers have either been bought or have went out of business. Often, the IT professional finds himself unemployed through no fault of his own. In an industry which often has frequent job changes, the skill of finding the right job is more important than the ability to do the work anyway. Nothing is more important than the skill of job interviewing, and this is where being a good manipulator is absolutely critical.

 

[ousoonerjoe]

the skill of finding the right job is more important than the ability to do the work

What good is it to get a job, if you can't do it?

"If I were to wake up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised than I am right now.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> That's a nice story. I bet he didn't last long in the Nixon White House.
He didn't, but that was his choice. That goes right back to the point of my original post. What do you mean by "get ahead". Clearly for him, working in an environment which went against his moral compass was not his idea of "getting ahead". And this IS an employee working for someone else.

==> And how much people help you also has very little to do with how much you help others.
Nothing could be further from the truth.

That is what most IT professionals do. They interview for jobs. They look for jobs. They have to convince people to promote them or give them raises. They sometimes find themselves out of work.

Actually, what most IT professions do is, DO their job.

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[kmcferrin]

In many cases in IT, a person has to move out in order to move up. On a personal note, four of my past employers have either been bought or have went out of business. Often, the IT professional finds himself unemployed through no fault of his own.

This is true. In many cases the opportunities for advancement just aren't there because there's already someone ahead of you on the totem pole. In the 1960's and 1970's, this was the norm and expected. People worked their entire career for a company, and when someone higher up was promoted or left the firm you would have an opportunity to prove your worth and earn the position. These days people don't stay with their employers that long.

IT is such a rapidly changing field that if you don't keep moving your skills tend to fall out of step with the rest of the industry and you have trouble findng work when you need it. That's why it is especially important that as IT professionals we continue to develop our IT skills and make an effort to stay current. It's great if someone earned an MCSE on Windows NT4. Unfortunately nobody runs NT4 these days, so that certification is largely useless. How many companies do you know of that are looking for FoxPro or FORTRAN developers? Probably not many, if any.

In an industry which often has frequent job changes, the skill of finding the right job is more important than the ability to do the work anyway. Nothing is more important than the skill of job interviewing, and this is where being a good manipulator is absolutely critical.

That is absolutely not the case. What's the use of being able to land a job if you don't know what you're doing when you get the job? You most likely will find yourself unemployed very quickly, and your name will have a nice black mark on it in the local IT community. I guess if all you do is fake your way into jobs and get fired then being able to get the job/interview could be more important to you than actually doing the job, but I would think that wouldn't last long. If you find yourself hopping jobs every 2-3 years, you'll spend a lot more time "doing the job" than interviewing for new ones.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[svanels]

When you own a business, you never have a performance review

Maybe not a formal performance review, but if you don't review your own performance, you will be out of business. And the rest of the staff including IT...




Steven

 

[ousoonerjoe]

Many companies are implementing something called 360 Reviews. That's when you are reviewed by not only your boss, but your underlings, and those of equal rank. CEO's and Presidents get these too. Their results are usually posted for public review by employees. While they may not be reviewed by someone of higher rank, they are judged by those that must serve under them.

CEO's and Presidents get a review every month, quarter, year by the CFO.... it's called the financials. If they aren't up to snuff, you can count on someone get after it to pull their weight better and get new business in/etc. They also (typically) address the company with a "State of the Company" address every quarter or every year. CEO's are not completely exempt from reviews. It just doesn't always get filed in HR.

"If I were to wake up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised than I am right now.

 

[OlympicTech]

Somewhat a bit off everyone else's thoughts, but still a different persective on the arguement.

While in the Military, I would consistantly see less qualified people get promoted. The commanding officers of these individuals would promote them so that they would have to move to other bases, thereby "passing on" the problem. The policy of moving to new locations with a promotion was in place because of the difficulties of individuals being a peer one day and in a position of authority the next within that same peer group. These same commanding officers would also delay some promotions in an effort to keep their best people with them longer.

Translate this senario to the workplace and it doesn't exactly come out the same, but close. I have seen lots of managers let certain people move to other positions outside of their department and those same managers block the advancement of others so they would keep working in that manager's department. The problem this typically creates is the "good" employees leaving the company altogether and getting their "promotion" in a new company. Can't really do that in the military!

So I guess getting ahead can be a problem for some of the hardworking/great employee types if they have a manager bent on keeping them around so the manager looks good!

Just thought I would throw something else into this soup and see what everyone thinks!

 

[supersteelers]

I'm a CCIE and make over $150,000 per year. I am quite satisified with my career right now.

I started in IT in 1995. For about five years, I went nowhere. I was still making about $35,000 when I was laid off from a company I really liked in early 2000. This was all during the boom, and I wasn't benefitting from it.

I then went into eight months of unemployment. I finally got a job at $45,000 in October 2000. It was a job that got me on track to getting that CCIE, which I got in 2005.

I remember a CCIE told me that the best way to get a CCIE is to "get access to gear." In late 2000, I got that kind of job exactly. And I was able to take my talents to the highest level possible.

I have just renewed my CCIE and plan on keeping it as long as I can. It's actually worth having. Because I have a CCIE, I don't have to play politics. When people call me, they don't care if I smile or not--they just want someone to put out the fire.

I honestly don't think I changed anything in 2000. I have always been willing to work hard, to learn, to take advantage of opportunities. Of course, I really don't think any worthwhile opportunities came to me in those first five years.

The only thing that did change was that in the summer of 2000--during my eight months of unemployment--I got back in touch with an old friend "MM." MM and I had been in grade school together and had generally been considered the "smartest in the class." Our teachers often paired us up and had us work together. Since she was a girl and I was a boy, we were also very competitive. MM and I were becoming good friends when she moved away after the third grade.

I was naturally happy when MM came back to Pittsburgh. We started seeing each other and both realized that we were very interested in being a lot more than just friends. Two months after MM came back to town, I got my job and saw my career take off.

For whatever reason, it seemed that people simply started to treat me differently. I started to get better service in restaurants. My co-workers respected me more. People seemed to like having me around.

I honestly don't think I changed anything. If I did, I didn't notice. I was still working hard and learning new things. I had always done that. The only difference was that people were definitely treating me better than before.

MM and I just had our first child. She decided to leave CPA work, so she could take care of our baby full time. I am so fortunate to have her in my life. I have always loved her.

I'm curious to hear what people say about this.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Based solely on your narrative, a big change occurred when MM came back into your life. That very positive change was reflected in your attitude, your body language, and probably your behavior. You were happy. You probably smiled more, had more patience, and in general, were nicer around people.

I think that's why people started to treat you differently. That's why you got better service and earned more respect. That's why people seemed to like having you around.

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[supersteelers]

Based solely on your narrative, a big change occurred when MM came back into your life. That very positive change was reflected in your attitude, your body language, and probably your behavior. You were happy. You probably smiled more, had more patience, and in general, were nicer around people.

I think that's why people started to treat you differently. That's why you got better service and earned more respect. That's why people seemed to like having you around.

And I actually moved ahead in my career when the economy (at least according to other people) was bad. I'm also in Pittsburgh, which was a high-tech mecca in the 1920's but definitely isn't now.

Other things happened in the late 1990's, too. Cancer took my mother in 1999. I definitely wasn't happy then.

I believe that every IT person should do the best job possible. However, I'm also convinced that something else is necessary to get ahead. Sometimes I fear that my success will go away if MM goes away.

If you get fired, it's because people don't like you. If you don't get ahead, it's because people don't like you. If you advance, it's because people like you. If you get hired, it's because people like you.

I don't think one should manipulate people to get ahead. However, you do need to make people like you to get ahead. And what's kind of scary is that I really don't know what turns off likability and what turns on likability. It does seem that it was turned on when a beautiful angel came into my life.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> I really don't know what turns off likability and what turns on likability.
More than anything, it's attitude and treating others with respect.

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[Davetoo]

More than anything, it's attitude and treating others with respect.

Couldn't agree more. I've hit a "glass" ceiling of sorts where I work...but not in pay. Throughout the years and the many different positions I've held within the same company (going on my 22nd year now), I usually worked on my own...not a lot of interaction. When I moved into the IT department years ago, all that changed. Thing is, I didn't change with it. I wanted to get in...fix things...get out. I liked working with the servers, setting things up, fixing things that were broke already and before they became broke.

Now I'm working twice as hard not at my knowledge job, but at the social aspect of my job. Treating others not like they're a burden on my day, but like they're problem is just as important to me as it is to them. While we all know that's not always true, it's still my job to make them feel that way. It's not easy...I have a huge hurdle to overcome, but I'm working on it, and eventually, over time, my users won't cringe when they need to call me, but instead be glad, once again, that I'm there to help solve their problem.

It's not enough to know your job and be really good at it...I've had that. When a system failed, they want me here to fix it, no doubt. But when a user is having trouble to format an Excel spreadsheet properly they should want me there as well.

And I'll not mince words to those that think manipulation is more important than integrity and doing the best you can in life...if you think manipulation is the key, then you've already failed in life, and I feel sorry for you. You have no clue...and no idea what you've missed. So sad.

I'm Certifiable, not cert-ified.
It just means my answers are from experience, not a book.

There are no more PDC's! There are DC's with FSMO roles!

 

[kmcferrin]

It's not enough to know your job and be really good at it...I've had that. When a system failed, they want me here to fix it, no doubt. But when a user is having trouble to format an Excel spreadsheet properly they should want me there as well.

Actually, I would think that having the correct attitude and being easy (even a pleasure) to work with should be part of everyone's job. We all have our rough moments of course, but good customer service skills are key to professional success...even if the people that you deal with aren't "customers" in the traditional sense.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[spamly]

I think the key to getting ahead in any situation is having a long-term strategy and short-term goals. It comes down to your own flexible game plan.

There are situations where manipulators succeed. It is difficult to argue this fact. We can all think of examples of this. People that work hard are passed over because they lack the personal/political/ass-kissing skills to advance or because they do too good of a job to promote. Some of these manipulators succeed in the long-term, others come crashing back to reality during the eventual downsizing, re-org, or business failure. The simple, and ugly, truth is that manipulation can and does often work. Okay, that said, I wouldn't feel comfortable using those type of skills to advance my career and life. If that's the path that you want to take, go for it. I can understand the desire to succeed, but I can't respect the method. I certainly won't ever work for or with you.

Back to my original statement, I think that one needs to be flexible and have goals to succeed. Look at where you are now? What would it take to make it to the next logical level? Are there improvements in your own personal or professional skills that need to happen? Maybe a degree? Is there even an opportunity? Know when it is a good time to stick it out and when a transition to another opportunity needs to occur.

Don't be afraid to create opportunities. Move to where you have potential. Always have that long-term strategy in mind. Always adjust and focus on those short-term goals.