CCNA & MSCE - Are they worth the effort? 3

[AndrewTait]

I am currently working for a company which is taking a big slice out of the work force, and having only been at the co. for 2 years, I am getting somewhat worried.

Looking at the job adverts in the UK, a lot of them are asking for CCNA or MSCE qualifications, which I have not got. Are they actually worth studying for, or are the companies just asking for them, with a view to limit the number of applications?

 

[BiggerDon]

Well, I'm new to this forum as well as to being a primary NT administrator but I've been in systems for 15 years and have little use for most of the MCSE's I have encountered. I certainly have had the opportunity to go for a cert but I choose to send my time and efforts learning why things happen and how to resolve them. I do know some people who are certified and are excellent at their job. However, I see a whole crop of recent grads just prior to Y2K that jumped on the IT bandwagon and tried (and did) to cash in on having 4 letters after their name. I've worked on MVS mainframes, AS/400's, Pc's, Mac's. The only thing I've barely touched is UNIX and that is simply because I haven't need to in any of the positions I have had in 15 years. If I need it tomorrow, I'll start learning then and continue to draw on my real world experinces. On thing that I do find that can be missing in some IT specialists is an understanding of the business aspect of an organization. I have a Bachelors of Business Adminstration in Management Systems. Knowing how IT fits into he business model is a huge advantage especially if you are young and just starting out.

 

[InnoTech]

jrbarnet, I think you may be a little on the high horse there. You sure did write alot about yourself rather than answer the question. Makes me think..... charlatan?

Take two 18 year olds and one job that reqiures MCSE. If one had the cert and the other not, who would get the job?

Enough said.

I would like to add. I never used my cert(s) until I worked pulling cable and testing fiber for a couple years. However, I don't think they're worthless.

"Jack of all trades. Master of none."

 

[CajunCenturion]

I can only speak for myself, but there is only one situation where an MCSE would make a difference in my choice of employees. If, after I have evaluated their formal education, their experience, their personality, their people skills, their communication skills, the professional presentation, how well I think they might fit into the team, and how well the team thinks they might fit in, (not necessarily in that order) and it's still a tossup, then the certificate may factor into the decision process.

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[jrbarnett]

InterNetech,

I did write a lot about myself for a very good reason: I asked a question - what would gaining MCSE status give me? Anybody answering that would need it in order to write an informed response, to which I haven't yet received any.

Why has this MCSE debate got me on a high horse?
Without giving too much away, I have come across many MCSE's over the last few years, whose technical expertise is far lower than mine, and they have looked up to me in solving technical problems.

I may have more respect for people with the certificate if the requirements involved a minimum of 6 months experience in second/third line support/network admin/server installation and maintenance after training before the certification was awarded, but as it is, I see it just as a piece of paper. Nothing more or less.

There is no job that requires an MCSE - they can require skills that a person with an MCSE certificate should have, but the actual certificate is meaningless without the person behind it, regardless of their actual level of expertise. Effectively, any advert saying "We want an MCSE to come manage our network" is asking for a piece of paper, not a person to manage a network.

All I can say is that if you think I am a charlatan, then so be it, I can't change what you beleive. All I can ask is to invite you to look at the work I have done in these forums over the last few months, and see if you really beleive that the problems I have solved and VBA code routines and FAQ's I have written are the work of somebody who doesn't know what he is doing.

 

[strazer]

I have to say that getting the MCSE was worth it for me. I started out as a pc tech. After I got my MCSE, I was hired on to a consulting business just because I had my MCSE. For them, it was all marketing. They could charge a higher rate for my time than a non-MCSE. So when I started the job, I didn't have any exprience maintaining a network. The MCSE provided me with basic knowlege of how Microsoft recommends setting up a network. It didn't teach me how to troubleshoot or fix a network if it was broke. I had to do a lot of research on my own to get problems corrected.
I didn't get the job where I currently work because of my MCSE. I got it because of my experience. So now I've asked myself if I'll maintain my MCSE status, and my answer is no. Later on down the road when I start looking for another job, I may get some certs again just so that I have that extra little edge during the hiring process.

 

[paintballer]

jrbarnett,
I used to work for a training company, and heard your arguement all the time. I believe that most of your statements are true, but from a very cynical point of view. An MCSE cert, or any other for that matter, can be whatever we put into it. Is it just a benchmark, as your IS degree is. Does your IS degree mean that you’re automatically better at computers, or just at going to school for 4 years, and learning underwater basket weaving and such? I think that it is just another tool to prove your knowledge, to a point, and help you to get a better position. And for those people that are good at taking test… well, then they become “paper MCSE’s”… Some of them, and still others use it to get their foot in the door, and go on to become great geeks!
All in all, I put some weight on the certification, and I think it’s a better path than going to college (my opinion) as it’s a more focused study than going through all the electives. Your rants sound like you’re the type of person to judge someone by their cert, and not look deeper and see how that person really is. Or perhaps you’re just frustrated by meeting too many paper MCSE’s, and M$ could make the certs harder, but then would the cheating tools just get better? How do you prove experience? How do you weight experience? If I only assemble computers, but have a cool title, does that count? Employers need to look at the total picture, and realize that we’re not just our degrees or certifications, but that we may have real world knowledge, skills, and gifts.
Okay, I’m done, I think I’m starting to drift…

Paintballer

 

[CajunCenturion]

Does your IS degree mean that you’re automatically better at computers, or just at going to school for 4 years, and learning underwater basket weaving and such

Gee - Basketweaving wasn't in the list in the required or elective courses for the BS in Computer Science program. What school did you go to?

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[AIXSPadmin]

I didn't bother to comment on what the shuckster said, Cajun, because I thought his comments were absurd and do not contain any intelligence in that ridiculous statemnt that you pointed out.

But this one "...I think it’s a better path (certifications) than going to college ..." is the most boneheaded stupid comment that probably has ever been posted in a thread.

 

[dvannoy]

I was not going to comment any more on this thread but here goes. if you want to get into IT management you probally wont without a degree and thats a fact. Unless you are with a company for several years and someone at the top gives you a break. Now I can except that since I have no degree. But I have 12 years in IT and am a Senior Systems Analyst. Yes I have a few certs big deal, but the bottim line is I have REAL world knowledge in network design, security and engineering so I am not to worried about not having my degree. If I could do it all over again would I get my degree? Of Course! I think Certs are a way for these manufactures to make extra money. anyone can pass a test. but, I can say that Cisco by far is one of the hardest cert's to get and I give respect for anyone that has there CCIE.

 

[paintballer]

I was trying to make a point, but I see that not everyone reading these postings is taking time to THINK about what is being said. (or at least the people replying on this post...)
I have plenty of certs, I've gone to college, but I didn't feel the need to finish my degree, as I had gotten my certs, and got a real job. I have 6 years of real world experience, and work at a very good company as a network admin, and I'm damn good at it.
The point that I was trying to make is that you get out of things what you put into them, and that you get stoopid people coming out of college, AND people that get certs. And if you're going to get an IT job (NOT A MANAGER) it's not crucial to have a degree, or a cert. Certifications help though, and they're better, in my humble opinion, because you can get them in less time, and with more specialization, than going to college. Is that true for everyone? Of course not. Did I offend people that took time to go to college? Probably, get over it.

Thanks for the people who care to read this all the way through, and take the time to UNDERSTAND what I'm trying to say.

Paintballer

 

[BiggerDon]

I understand you point of view paintballer. Although I have a degree in business, I have been running businesses of my own or for others since I was 15 and really don't feel that I was taught a lot but it certainly has been a help in the early part of my career. Personally, I don't really care what sort of certification or education some one has and that includes some one right out of high school. What I want to see is some one who is intelligent in their discipline, that has the deisire and willingness to learn and has a good ethical quality about them. I've seen far too many individuals (and systems is about the only specialty that can have this...acountants need to have their numbers verifed) that just don't really spend any effort on professinalism since most people don't know what it is we do. As for any type of education, one thing to remember is that the Titanic was built by pro's. The Ark was built by amateurs.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Sounds like a touched a nerve there paintballer, but nevertheless, I agree with you totally, you get out of things what you put into them. Of course, to get the most, you need to finish that which you started. I'm also glat that your choice not to finish school (for whatever reason, many of which are quite valid, reasonable, and right at the time) worked out best for and you're happy with that choice. And by the way, I'm not offended at all. It's quite common, in fact, for those who have not completed school not to understand the value that education provides.

I also agree completely that certifications take less time and are more specialized, usually to a specific product. Of course, in this industry, short-term specializations are just that, short-term.

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[InnoTech]

Well, I guess i'll see soon what good "really world" experience is going to be for me, now. I don't have certs anymore being that they are extremely outdated (2000). I do have years of management and senior tech experience, though. i have recently quit my job and i'm relocating to a better tech location (dallas, tx) than where i was before. i will soon see if my "experience" will provide for better prospect jobs than getting told "we need someone with certs or a degree". so, i'd say our discussion will soon be proven, one way or the other, how far what gets you.

jrbarnet, I was only joking about the charlatan bit. calm down, i'm sure you are not.

"Jack of all trades. Master of none."