Working hours... 11

[willir]

I came across this post on the web.

Europeans suffering more hours on the job

In paticular...

European governments, facing high unemployment and spiralling fiscal crises, effectively told their workers to follow the lead of countries such as Canada, where people work a lot more hours than they did a couple of decades ago — without making any more money, in real terms.

When I read this, I thought of how true -- I am working longer hours, less incentives with modest cost-of-living increases (and I have been told by management I am in the top 10% of the performers so I can only imagine what others endure).

More over, there seems to be a push to cut benefits, changes to OT rules or having to work OT without any further pay, etc.

Although the Dot.com or Tech bubble burst has something to do with the change, I really feel this is business reacting to the outsourcing Pacific rim because of the reduced labour costs, possibly the reduced liability for environmental and HR concerns, etc.

So....
- What are your thoughts? Perspectives from North America, Europe, Asia.
- Have others seen this trend?
- How do the ones being affected adjust? What about the next generation or two?
- Is this the price we pay as the global society adjusts as the Pacific rim continues to become more competitive with reduced costs, improved quality and improved productivity?
- How do you personally cope with the change?

 

[Zelandakh]

JLez,
You could probably do the job of 2 of my staff. You could possibly do the job of 3 of them. I would appreciate you and treat you well.

Unfortunately, your Manager and mine are the same type. My staff are the ones surfing while we work.

Your choices are to ignore the problem and stick your head in the sand, or ignore the problem and stick your head in the job ads...

 

[Onyxpurr]

Actually I prefer salary. I just refuse to be worked to the bone because of it.

At my current job I do work overtime on occasion, however I also have the flexibility to leave early or for an hour or two during the day if I need it.

This has been perfect for me lately, because my mom has been in and out of the hospital and needed some help with things, not to mention going and visiting her.

I would hate to work hourly again. However I refuse to be taken advantage of on salary. It's a give and take thing. I would never take advantage of the company over it either.

 

[leztek]

OK..

Zelandakh thanks.. Where are ya located? I'm in Pennsylvania.

They did agree to pay for my mmasters degree. I purchases some items for the MCSE, CCNA and CISSP. I'm gonna give it hell over the summer.

I'm just started sending out my resume.

Suppossly my boss is going to bat for me next week? I told him I would gladly be part of the meeting to state my case. We shall see!

Salary is good, if you are compensated for it and allowed the perks (comp time, longer lunches, etc). However, as an employee, you should still put in a full days work and then some, but not to the point of exhausten (sp?).

Hey, just my opinion.

Lez

 

[Thadeus]

Salary is good, if you are compensated for it and allowed the perks (comp time, longer lunches, etc). However, as an employee, you should still put in a full days work and then some, but not to the point of exhausten (sp?).

Not disagreeing, but I wonder why it is that you feel one should "put in a full days work and then some"? Is there a reason you feel you owe the company more than they pay you for?

Again, while I may disagree with your reason, I am honestly curious, not just baiting.

~Thadeus

 

[Onyxpurr]

I agree with Thadeus.

I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to work over 40 hours for the company, but feel it is unethical to sometimes work under.

Shouldn't it be a give and take?

Honestly, my company is paying me for my mental abilities and skill, not really my time. On average I work 40 hours a week, but sometimes more, sometimes less. This is the agreement when you're put on salary. Not never to work under 40, but mostly over it.

I refuse to compromise my personal life for a company who's bottom line is profit.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but once you're in a career and a professional, it's not really about how many hours you put in, it's if you get the work done.

They're paying you for your knowledge and expertise now. This should allow for a more flexible schedule. I would suggest looking around for another job if your company sees it differently.

 

[jaymaechtlen]

Craig-
"Empathy is hard to come by when 37 hours is usually worked in 3 days, sometimes in as little as two at this end"

I didn't notice that earlier- I thought you were speaking of an entire week!

I believe that long hours and extra hours should be rewarded, either by extra money or extra time off.

(now a salaried employee!)
Jay

 

[leztek]

OnyxPurr...

Yes it should be give and take.. but not taken advantage off by either party. Normally when you are salary, there is no such thing as overtime pay, and quiet honestly, if someone is working 60 plus hours a week, when are they going to have the time to utilize comp time?

In my situation, it came down to is I was expected to put in 60 hours a week. I can see 45 or 50 and occasionally more if the need is there, but expected 60 and no adjust my salary for the extra time? Somthing just isn't right. Especially, when others walk theough the door at 8:15, when they should be here at 8 and leave at 4:15, when they should work until 4:30.

I can't wait until my meeting next week. I've been on a quasi-strike since January, only putting in 40-45 a week.

Just my opion.

JLez

 

[jtb]

no job is worth the trauma of a divorce.

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[willir]

Thanks folks for your posts.

A few more stars given.

jtb Your post was short but drives home the point on the importance of home life.

As an FYI, I just finished working the last 7 days with 12+ hours per day -- brutal. But, hey it was for the "team" right. But what about my family and kids who have to fend for themselves?

One thread seems to re-appear a few times -- salary vs hourly. Obviously, when you move up the "corporate" ladder, you will eventually be expected to work for a salary. Some may start out with a salary.

The issue with IT is that the system administration work often has to be done after hours. A common maintenance window would be Saturday night / Sunday morning. Plus, you would have to work during the week. How many free weekend do you give up before you start to expect compensation? In addition is the after hours support as pointed out by craigsboyd. How many 2AM phone calls will you tolerate before you start to get aggrivated?

Time in-leau works if you have backup -- but as stated by leztek, when there is no back up, time in-leau does not work.

(BTW leztek - in a past life, a very senior manager once asked me why he should pay me because there were very few problems. My reply was one word "exactly" - thisinferred the reason there were no apparent problems was because I was very proactive in fixing problems before they became "problems".)

Consequently, I personally favour a mixed pay scheme. Salary for admin and regular work, and OT for after hours support and system work. Of course management these days seems to fight payment of OT, but seem to expect it.

I know some of you have reached a high level where the quality of work is critical, and OT is less of an issue. From my experience, the DBA's (who have every thing scripted and "play" on a great team of system admins) and programmers (with no high priority deliverables) usually fall into this bracket. Management may or may not fall into this bracket depending on whether they are always fighting fires or manage a stable system. Comments SQLSister and Onyxpurr ??

...Moving on

I am still trying to get a handle on work hours and OT from the geographical areas. Pretty please, with a cherry on top, include your experience and your general location

 

[leztek]

Willir..

I like you quote - "in a past life, a very senior manager once asked me why he should pay me because there were very few problems. My reply was one word "exactly" - this inferred the reason there were no apparent problems was because I was very proactive in fixing problems before they became problems"

I think I may use that one next week.

Thanks guys

 

[foc]

IMHO

It all revolves around the working environment (this includes managers and co-workers) and where your priorities are.

I have been lucky the past several years to have managers that know that what ever work I have to do will be done, on time and usually under budget. And that if they are any issues that arise, I will tell them before it becomes a problem.
Most of the time, for me, it all washes out in the end. There will be days that I have to work crazy hours to get something done. Then there will be days were I am at work and don’t have that mush to do, and I might skip out a little early.

For me, family is very important and if something comes up – I will take care of it. If the company that I work for has a problem with that, then there will be issues. One has to make concessions to meet their own responsibilities, maybe I go find another job – what ever it is to pay the bills.

 

[Nuffsaid]

I don't know about others.....

"I work to live not vice versa."

Anyway


Nuffsaid.

 

[Onyxpurr]

Well my issue as a data analyst, is requests from users that have no idea of what it takes to pull together a report and a system that is shaky at best.

My current issue is reports requested within a time period that is not feasible. I try to communicate this to the users and ask for prioritization, but to no avail.

I'll give it about another week until I blow up compltely. However will reasonably sit down with them and inform them I will not work 5 hours of OT each night for the rest of my life. It must end or I will surely soon be looking for a different employer.

 

[leztek]

Onyx..

You have to love it. I get simalar problems all the time...

Everyone thinks you can press a few buttons an tada, a report.

I lvoe it when people complain about a system and you ask them what the issue is and they really don't have a answer.

We switch acounting systems a few years ago and you would not believe the complaints about the reports being different tehn what the users were us to seeing.

We started a saying in the IT department "Change is wonderful, as long as everythign stays the same!"

 

[leztek]

Thought I would give everyone an update...

I had my meeting with senior management.

I received a 7 percent increase, with another review in 6 months. I had asked for more money, and should receive it in October.

Also, they are paying for my Masters Degree, which will amount to 20,000 over two or three years.

I guess I'm worth something!

As my momma once said.. It never hurts to ask!

Thanks

 

[DoubleD]

Congrats Leztek! Good for you!

I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.

DoubleD

 

[Zelandakh]

Nice one.

 

[langleymass]

I know one person whose employer paid for her master's degree, and then they gave her a raise because she had a master's degree.

 

[leztek]

Lang..

We will see about that, I figure it is going to take me two years to obtain the Masters.

Right now, I am thankful that my employer is going to pay for the degree. Likewise, I am looking forward to my next review in October.

Thanks for the rsponses.

Lez

 

[ChrisHunt]

I'm a contract programmer in the UK, paid by the hour, and currently relishing the opportunity to work 35 hours a week. Other contracts have required longer hours - up to 40 contracted hours and OT as required, but always paid. When they stop paying, I go home - there are lots of charities I'm willing to contribute to, but my employers aren't one of them.

If anyone tells you it's not "professional" to refuse to do unpaid overtime, just point them to the dictionary:

pro·fes·sion·al: Performed by persons receiving pay

If you want me to work for nothing, that would make me an amateur.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd