Working hours... 11

[willir]

I came across this post on the web.

Europeans suffering more hours on the job

In paticular...

European governments, facing high unemployment and spiralling fiscal crises, effectively told their workers to follow the lead of countries such as Canada, where people work a lot more hours than they did a couple of decades ago — without making any more money, in real terms.

When I read this, I thought of how true -- I am working longer hours, less incentives with modest cost-of-living increases (and I have been told by management I am in the top 10% of the performers so I can only imagine what others endure).

More over, there seems to be a push to cut benefits, changes to OT rules or having to work OT without any further pay, etc.

Although the Dot.com or Tech bubble burst has something to do with the change, I really feel this is business reacting to the outsourcing Pacific rim because of the reduced labour costs, possibly the reduced liability for environmental and HR concerns, etc.

So....
- What are your thoughts? Perspectives from North America, Europe, Asia.
- Have others seen this trend?
- How do the ones being affected adjust? What about the next generation or two?
- Is this the price we pay as the global society adjusts as the Pacific rim continues to become more competitive with reduced costs, improved quality and improved productivity?
- How do you personally cope with the change?

 

[langleymass]

ChrisHunt gets a star for such a great attitude. If you work for nothing, you are not a professional.

 

[chris13]

A further star for ChrisHunt.
I am not willing to work overtime without compensation. Money or spare time are just some kind of compensation. If I get the chance to learn some new stuff or to be responsible for things who make good sense (more than saving/gaining my boss $$$), that has proven to be another kind of compensation for working over time. And a nice kind of motivation, too

 

[Zen37]

I share the attitude of ChrisHunt.

I even take it a step further of sorts. I refuse to be on call unless i get compensated for the inconvenience of being on call.

When you are on call, you cannot go out for a trek, if you go to the movies, theater or any event, you can be asked to leave at anytime to go to work. That stress is to be renumerated. I use to get 12 hrs a week extra JUST to be oncall (i get those hours whether i get a call or not). Granted 12hrs was a very sweet deal, but i would not be on call for less than 4.

I also agree, that being single without a family, makes this easy to do, but i don't mind saying to my employer, if you don't like the deal, get someone else. The cost of getting a replacement for me far outweight the cost of paying my hours. If my employer says "good bye", i'll just get another job. He's the loser in this deal anyways.

I am a qualified worker, i work hard and very well and THAT deserves to be compensated.

 

[Spirit]

I m a Brit working for a company with sites in the States along with a few other countries. The difference between me and them is that they will "work" longer hours just to say that they were in at 0600 and left at 2100 yet they don't seem to be any more productive.

I am more than happy to put in the hours but only if it can be justified that it is needed. For example do I have to come to work on Saturday to read server logs err... no thats 9-5 work, do I need to come to work on saturday to migrate the email server yes. If needs must then I'll do it but if you can't justify it to me then nope I shall be in the pub with a cold one!

My friend said it best:
"If you work more than your contracted hours then either you're over worked and need to delegate or you can't do your job properly".

Easy for an analyst to say but I like his point.

 

[jrbarnett]

I took great delight this week in refusing to my manager's manager to have my mobile phone number added to the list of staff contact details in the disaster recovery documentation.
She said "Its not necessary but would be useful, but you won't get any extra money for it."
While I realise being called out for this would be only in a real emergency, due to recent events (unrelated to this) I refused. There are several people on it who get paid more than I do and are more appropriately qualified and experienced to recover the systems in the event of an emergency.

John

 

[Spirit]

Nice one JR.

I think enough is enough and its time for the IT'ers to take a stand we don't get sale wages and when was the last time you saw a sales exec after 1530?

I often get told to work weekends but if they can't justify it then the answer is no. And "because I ask you to" is not a reason for it not to wait until Monday!

 

[dBjason]

Yepper, I've just put in my 30 days for similar reasons.

For months I'd been putting hours in on weekends, working 8-10 hour days, comming in early just to have to stay late because a meeting was scheduled for 16:00.

Yesterday I was informed that although my salary is based on a 40-hour work week, my weekend time here doesn't count, I'm exempt from employee breaks, and the time involved in those late meetings also doesn't count towards my 40. I asked if I should chain myself to the cubical, guess what that answer was?

As you may guess, I have 29 days left!!!

So when my car broke down last Monday, I had to take 8 hours of my vacation time because all that "OT" I put in doesn't count. Did I mention that I still have to come in weekends and attend late meetings?

Wherever I go to next I am going to specify: No weekends w/o extra pay or credited hours, and the same for late weekdays.

 

[langleymass]

I am convinced that many of the people working insane hours are not doing so because they necessarily have a lot of work to do. I am convinced that it has more to do with imposed disorgranization from above and just plain bull-manure.

Here's a good example from yesterday. One idiot Gracie in my office sent me an e-mail at 9:45 about a training taking place at 10am. It was short notice, but also was pretty important. I went to the meeting room at 10am, and nobody was there. After about ten minutes, I called the extension of the sender of the e-mail and got no answer.

I start looking around Gracie's area, figuring the training had been moved. Gracie was at our cube, and she had taken her phone off the hook. "Where's the training?" I asked. She then told me that the person who had initially scheduled the training was on vacation.

How much of your time is wasted because of organizational dysfunctionality? This only cost me about fifteen minutes, but this kind of garbage really adds up.

 

[jaymaechtlen]

dBjason:
you gave them 30 days?
get the new job and give them a zero day notice!
Jay

 

[Zen37]

People, i truly beleive that if we don't start taking these matters seriously, nothing will ever change.

The only good, honorable thing to do is not to put up with it anymore. We need to stand up and show that we will not let management step on our backs just because there are others willing to do the job.

Obviously, some of us will get fired the first time you stand up for yourself. But i'd rather be fired for that than stuck in a minuscule cubicule, making insane hours and getting beaten on a regular basis by management.

If we all stand together and stop "accepting these conditions as facts of IT life", we will overcome this form of tyranny. Let us unite in our freedom from our oppressor and employers alike!!!

 

[chris13]

Many good points. But there is something I learned about some(!) kind of managers:
- they are managers and they know how to manage everything they can imagine.
- they don't need to listen to anybody telling them how to do it in a better way. If they or their emplyees don'nt have the time to think about and to make things work, they hire consultants/external stuff or try to replace you by someone who promises heaven on earth.
- they are paid by their success i.e. they make the ideas of the CEO work within the timeframe they(!) have comitted.
- they are able to waste a lot of $$$ just to be able to say "I' made it work" within the timeframe, even if the solution will never suite their needs longer than for the clearly visible needs of some months.

Sorry, I'm very disapointed at the moment. And I even can't consider to move to another employer because they need the same water for cooking. And I have no chance to evaluate their way of cooking. There are good ways, I know. I could pass my life to find an apropriate employer, but the only way I can imagine at the moment is to create my own business.
Not an easy way, too. At the moment I can't follow that way. Too much energy is needed to get up and withstand the wish to smash tomahawks in the faces of my group-leader, team-leader and the boss of the department who sits in next the room. And the same level of energy is needed to get to sleep after 10-12 hours just to be back in the mill at the next morning. Time to quit without any perspective....

 

[DPlank]

I've just taken the step from working for a outsourced function to an independent contractor.

My first job has tripled my income (well, almost) and reduced the working hours to 37.5 from 45 per week.

Also, because my contract is defined at an hourly rate, I get paid for what I work - so if I work 40 hours, I get paid for 40 hours.

Personally, I'm hoping for much much more of the same!



Cheers,
Dave

Probably the only Test Analyst Manager on Tek-Tips...therefore whatever it was that went wrong, I'm to blame...

animadverto vos in Abyssus!

Take a look at Forum1393!

 

[davidwendelken]

Years ago, my CEO told me that he was ordering beepers for my programming department and I.

I told him, "When I and my staff write programs so poorly that we need beepers, I will find another line of work."

We didn't get any beepers.



David Wendelken

http://www.casetech.net

 

[cappmgr]

Interesting

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/27/60II/main704571.shtml

Marty

 

[Onyxpurr]

Cool article, thanks!! Sounds like a lot of conflicting opinions on that topic though. Productivity per hour is higher yet they are not successful?? WTH??

 

[Zen37]

Good exemple of the extremes.

We need more private time, more family time, more me time here in North America and they need more work weeks, a little more work hours and definatly paid overtime.

I think that a guaranteed three week vacation for everyone is not too much to ask. 37.5 hour week with paid overtime up to maximum 48 hours. No matter what, you cannot work more than 48 hours a week. Guaranteed 1/2 a sick day per month, and they cannot deny or reach you when you are on vacation.

 

[langleymass]

Nobody has mentioned that about half of the American people's working hours are in fact wasted in taxes. How many hours would people be working if there were no federal income tax?

And of course, without all those hours consumed by taxes, there would be more left for the people who are now paid not to work.

 

[DPlank]

Without those taxes, there would be no government...

And without a government, you would have anarchy/return to a tribal type mentality.

Isn't the idea supposed to be that the goverment takes the minimum amount of taxes from you in order to serve and protect the public and its interests? You know, defend the borders, pay the police etc etc...



Cheers,
Dave

Probably the only Test Analyst Manager on Tek-Tips...therefore whatever it was that went wrong, I'm to blame...

animadverto vos in Abyssus!

Take a look at Forum1393!

 

[chiph]

Isn't the idea supposed to be that the goverment takes the minimum amount of taxes from you in order to serve and protect the public and its interests? You know, defend the borders, pay the police etc etc...

That's the Republican party of Goldwater's era, which sadly no longer exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater

Chip H.


____________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please read FAQ222-2244 first

 

[chris13]

Yes I think taxes are not in question, but their amount and what they are used for. Not all people agree when their representatives decide about how to spend the money. And more than rarely there is a certain amount of public money that is used to fill somebodies personal pockets (in every country - more or less?). That's independant of any political "direction", but splits between the ones that get their profit and the rest of the world.