Working hours... 11

[willir]

I came across this post on the web.

Europeans suffering more hours on the job

In paticular...

European governments, facing high unemployment and spiralling fiscal crises, effectively told their workers to follow the lead of countries such as Canada, where people work a lot more hours than they did a couple of decades ago — without making any more money, in real terms.

When I read this, I thought of how true -- I am working longer hours, less incentives with modest cost-of-living increases (and I have been told by management I am in the top 10% of the performers so I can only imagine what others endure).

More over, there seems to be a push to cut benefits, changes to OT rules or having to work OT without any further pay, etc.

Although the Dot.com or Tech bubble burst has something to do with the change, I really feel this is business reacting to the outsourcing Pacific rim because of the reduced labour costs, possibly the reduced liability for environmental and HR concerns, etc.

So....
- What are your thoughts? Perspectives from North America, Europe, Asia.
- Have others seen this trend?
- How do the ones being affected adjust? What about the next generation or two?
- Is this the price we pay as the global society adjusts as the Pacific rim continues to become more competitive with reduced costs, improved quality and improved productivity?
- How do you personally cope with the change?

 

[jaymaechtlen]

I'm in SoCal, USA.
In one part of the article they almost suggest that productivity per worker-week stayed the same with the 35 hour week, but later it clearly says that "hourly productivity" was the same. At that point, people will choose between free time and money.
Obviously, any particular class of job may become worth more or less over several decades. Things change- what a surprise...
With global competition in many fields, cost per worker-hour will come under pressure in Europe, UC, Canada, etc.
I have to laugh when you speak of "coping" with a 37 hour week instead of a 35 hour week...

cheers
Jay

 

[spamly]

Good post.

I was discussing this with a contractor recently. He was telling me that his father went on strike, risking loss of employment, to help get the 40 hour work week. He went on to tell me that his generation, our generation, seems to have lost this. I couldn't agree more.

It's a difficult issue. IT professionals don't have the same leveraging power that we had back in the late 1990's. It seemed back then that if somebody could spell computer they could land a job at a great salary. Now there's fierce competition. Or is this just a perception? Anyway, businesses seem to want to do more with less people. Now with sky rocketing healthcare costs across public and private sectors, employers are going to need to tighten benifets even more.

 

[craigsboyd]

I have to laugh when you speak of "coping" with a 37 hour week instead of a 35 hour week...

That's the part that I can't get over. Empathy is hard to come by when 37 hours is usually worked in 3 days, sometimes in as little as two at this end. I'm far from the only one that works these kind of hours, I regularly receive emails and phone calls from contractors or friends in the IT field at 1:00 a.m., 2:00a.m. and even later. And these are not people who are working the nightshift either. I can't decide whether there is way too much whining going on with this (marching in the streets no less), or if I just need to get a life. Probably the latter.

http://www.sweetpotatosoftware.com

 

[jrbarnett]

I work in the UK, just outside Oxford in a public sector role. My employment contract calls for 36.5 hours per week, excluding lunch and coffee breaks, although I routinely do more because otherwise new jobs would come in faster than jobs were being completed and ticked off the list.

If I stuck to that time specified in my contract, I would need to specify a longer estimate before getting the work completed to the staff I support.

John

 

[willir]

spamly - I liked your post reminding us of the history that has lead to our current work culture. The strikes, brutal retaliation, etc was a turbulent time. And the workers eventually won.

The difference now is that back then, business was able to weld a brutal club, ... but ... they had no where else to go for resources (resources meaning - work force, power, raw materials, etc)

Now, business can go elsewhere for resources and apparently chooses to do so. Do you agree?

jaymaechtlen Jay - How many hours do you work in SoCal? Does pressure to be more productive in the work place appear to be increasing?

craigsboyd Craig - You obviously work in a high stress, fast paced, responsive environment. What geographical location do you hail from? Is your workload typical in your area? (I recently changed my 24x7 pager for another job, just as intensive, but nolonger 24x7)

jrbarnett John - Thanks for your comments. So you quote 36.5 hr/wk, but have to work a little harder to keep up. How much longer? Do you find the amount of time increasing over the past few years?

 

[jrbarnett]

Its a bit difficult to say, because I've only been in my current job since last August.

John

 

[jaymaechtlen]

I am a contractor currently, and am not authorized overtime without pre-arrangement.
Therefore, I work 8hrs/day - 40 hrs/week (std week without overtime.)
If a 'hot' project comes up, I am quite willing to work the overtime at 1.5*regular rate.
In my previous job/career, I was salaried. No overtime pay.
Standard hours were 40/week, and extra if/as needed.
However, there was generally "comp" time off to compensate for worked overtime. The company was sometimes stupid about that, but our managers would just handle it "under the table".
I don't see any great increase of pressure compared to then- but that was a very different company in a different industry.

 

[spamly]

In my experience, companies tend to continually switch business practices when it comes to filling positions or getting the job done. Kind of a "flavor of the week" approach. For a year they'll bring in contractors to setup emerging technologies, then the next year they'll hire new employees for the new projects. My company (~20,000 employees) has gone through 5 or 6 CIO's in the last 5 years. Each CIO has been an "Industry Expert" and has a new approach. The latest CIO came from a global outsourcing company.

Regardless, it has all about getting the most for their money.

I work in the US and I typically put between 50 and 70 hours weekly. My manager doesn't like to discuss compensation (either time off or overtime). When pushed, he turns an angry shade of red and tells us "We're all professionals" or "This isn't the only place to work. If you don't like where the bus is heading, it may be time to get off the bus." Yeah, not the best managerial approach to this difficult issue, but as the employer he does have a significant amount of leverage. His attitude is certainly not typical of most managers, here or elsewhere.

 

[jaymaechtlen]

Well, spamley-
you folks may be professionals, but it doesn't sound like your manager is very professional!

I am really encouraged by the increasing number of positions being advertised.
Cheers
Jay

 

[MasterRacker]

I've never worked a job where I was able to 'only' work 40 hours. My current job comes close and there is some relief from extra hours. Most of the time however, I've been expected to work 50-60 or more, whatever it takes to get the job done. No overtime, no comp time.

[purple]Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

 

[jaymaechtlen]

I just noticed the phrase " 36.5 hours per week, excluding lunch and coffee breaks" above.

So coffee breaks are outside of working hours? Are other breaks also excluded from working hours? How much time would coffee breaks take in a typical day?

(I guess anywhere from 15-30 minutes a day in coffee breaks here during working hours)
Jay

 

[jrbarnett]

Legally, in the UK, if you work for more than 6 hours per day, you are entitled to a 1 hour lunchbreak and 2 x 20 minute coffee breaks per day.
Having said that, my coffee tends to get drunk at my desk rather than away from it.

I think that this also applies to mainland Europe as well.

John

 

[langleymass]

I have a few theories on this and may step on a few toes.

Some people simply don't have lives. If they only worked 40 hours, they actually might have to face that fact and then do something about it. Working all the time is a way of avoiding this "problem."

Government interference in health care has raised the cost of health care so much that it is now cheaper for employers to pay overtime than it is to pay for benefits.

There are no unions, and nobody has the courage to say NO.

I don't care what they pay is. I am not interested in working all the time. When I am on my death bed, I am not going to say: "I wish I had spent more time at the office."

 

[wbg34]

Some people simply don't have lives. If they only worked 40 hours, they actually might have to face that fact and then do something about it. Working all the time is a way of avoiding this "problem."
Then again some people don't have lives because they are required to be at work all the time. While I have met some people who live to be at work the majority of people I know who work extra hours do not choose to do so.

There are no unions, and nobody has the courage to say NO.
Working 60-80 hours a week is just as if not more common among union workers then it is non-union at least the unions here.

I don't care what they pay is. I am not interested in working all the time. When I am on my death bed, I am not going to say: "I wish I had spent more time at the office."
That is a great attitude as long as you can make that choice. Unfortunately in alot of places there aren't enough jobs around to be that selective.

 

[MasterRacker]

Yeah, it would be nice to be able to make the choice. I wasn't speaking about long hours out of pride. Most of the programming and sysadmin jobs in my area are flat salary - no extra pay for extra houtrs and you work the hours necessary to make deadlines - period. There's not a lot of choice except the choice of leaving the field.

That being said, one thing I feel very strongly about is making sure vacation really is vacation. No pager, no phone, no laptop. If the employer tries to make you carry a phnoe and pager on vacation, take vacation somewhere so remote there is no service. Even if the place blow up, I don't want to know about it until I get back.

If they expect me to be reachable on vacation, there better be a LOT of money involved!

[purple]Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

 

[willir]

spamly -- Ouch on changing CIO's so frequently. Changing mandates and direction will certainly add to the work load, and stress factor. I gather your manager is a bit stressed out too by his comments. Not fair to you.

jrbarnett -- Do you feel North Americans work too hard, have their priorities messed? At the pub, do your colleagues complain about their work load, etc? If so, are they being reasonable?

langleymass -- I understand and agree (to a point) and appreciate your honesty. Unions -- well, huge topic -- they can server their purpose, and they can hinder progress. Health care - yikes, rates going up again, but I personally feel this is more due to the cost of doctors, and the drug companies recouping their research costs. Ahmen to your comment about those who live to work, and forget about their personal life.

But where do you fit in? Want continent do you hail from? You seem to suggest that the work load is acceptable. And this is probably because you make time for your personal life. True?

MasterRacker (With that handle, I wonder what you do at work ;-) ) I have worked salary too. But in recent work, when one has to support a site at 2AM or spend half the weekend performing an system upgrade, do feel salary is enough? Or should there be comp-time or OT? Are the long hours you and your colleagues putting in because of a tight budget, a struggling profit margin, OR do you feel management is taking advantage of you?

wbg34 -- Your rebuttle of langleymass is fine -- it is what I am looking for. but What about you, your colleagues and your environment and workload, and where do you hail from?

 

[wbg34]

Willir--I consider myself to be very fortunate. I live and work in Western NY state. The area is economically depressed with many manufacturers having left for areas with lower wages/taxes. The manufacturers that have stayed try to compete with other areas by having their workers (mainly Union) work every Saturday and every other Sunday.
My last position was with in IT with a Manufacturer where I was expected to be available when the shop was in operation including vacations. This was because I was the only IT person at the company which is common in this area because the majority of the manufactiurers left are small family types. Truthfully, I expected to have to work like that until I could retire.
But I was lucky. I was able to get a position at a University that has a decent size IT staff. On occasion we are asked to put in extra hours to complete major projects, but for the most part if I need to put in extra hours I can do it from home.
I still have many friends and family that still do the 60-70 hour a week grind because that is the only choice they have if they want a job around here. I for one am very thankful that I found a way out.

 

[MasterRacker]

willir, (My handle is not work related ;-) )

One of the theories behind salary/hourly is that salaries are paid to those who do work that can't easily be done on a fixed schedule. Part of that balance then is that salaried employees make a little more to compensate for the possiblity of extra hours being put in. Also, in theory, they should be able to flex thier schedules since they are working to "get the job done" rather than simply "put the time in". Whether mgmt actually gives you that flex is another matter.

In my case, in the past I've definitely been shortchanged in the time vs. pay equation. This is one of the reason's I've become so militant about my being unreachable vacations. In my current job, I have a much better balance both on flex and getting time back. I also make less, so there's still a tradeoff.

(I've not made it far anough up the corporate ladder to get paid six figures to do nothing... [LOL] )

[purple]Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

 

[jrbarnett]

I don't know; I understand that compared to Europeans, North Americans have longer hours and shorter holidays, but I don't personally know any Americans working in a similar position to mine to be able to provide a realistic comparison.

John