Vista DRM

[pmonett]

In a previous thread there was a lot of discussion around DRM and content protection, and one participant specifically asked for "proof" concerning what it does.
Well Microsoft not being very helpful on the subject, at the time there was none, so the discussion ended up in the pro-MS vs anti-MS, and we all know how useful that is.
Now, however, a voice has made itself heard : that of Mr. Peter Gutmann, apparently a professor in New Zealand. Go here to read his analysis (please do, it is quite enlightning !).

Having read this article, I will summarize it thusly :
- Vista overtly disables all non-compliant interfaces when playing "protected" content, meaning S/PDIF and component video, as well as TOSlink and coax output for audio
- Vista covertly degrades the signal in a dynamic manner, so you'll never know if the fuzzyness you see on your high-end HD screen is due to a bug or to Vista content management doing its job
- the implication of content protection is that driver specifications are kept to a minmum, ensuring that open-source drivers will be few and far between
- another driver problem is that the Hardware Functionality Scan (HFS) prevents using the Unified driver models because it requires the driver to be specifically certified for the hardware - so it's back to one driver per model of graphics card or sound card
- Microsoft can apparently revoke the useability of a driver or device if it decides to, which means that all users of said element will be left in the cold until a replacement is available (at cost ?)
- Vista can now be TILTed, just like the pinball machines of old. Apparently, in order to detect hardware tampering, Vista now tracks glitches in results, buffers and signals, and when enough happen, guess what you see ?

There's more in the analysis, but I'll stop there.
Now I'm sure that some people will find perfectly reasonable arguments to justify all the above, but I'm interested in objective opinions. Doesn't all this open wide avenues for hacking ? And please don't answer that it doesn't matter because Vista "is more secure" - let's see just how secure Vista actually is in the field before giving it the laurels.
I think this whole DRM scheme will be a useability disaster. The worst case scenario would be a hacker finding out how to hijack the revocation process and actually using it.

What do you think ?

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[Opieo]

But Stu, I have never even had iTunes installed.
And will never buy from them.
=P
Simply because it has the DRM.

~
Give a man some fire, he will be warm for a day, Set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.

 

[Sympology]

And there lies my point.
If people don't buy DRM protected disks, the the big green monster will become a fluffy puppy.
Granted, the Record industry & Hollywood are usually a few years behind the times, but when they see the bottom line drop, then they will react.
This is not a MS issue, this is a content issue. This IS about Hollywood worrying about content being copied. But lets face it, downgrading it to stereo, standard res, will make no difference. For Pete's sake, people buy dodgy dvd's filmed on a Camcorder, so low res will be a blessing.
remeber these are the people that think +1 Dodgy DVD sold = -1 genuine one sold.
We are venting anger at the wrong people. It is entirely up to the publishers whether to enforce DRM on a disk or not.
And no I don't work for MS, but blaming the messenger for bad news, doesn't work, this issue will affect DVD players, PC's, media centres etc etc. If people simply say "No, I won't buy that DVD,as it has DRM" then they will soon bury it.

Stu..

Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[Opieo]

I quote myself:

No, I will never touch Vista (hacked or not), is supports DRM in the internals of the OS.


*grins*

~
Give a man some fire, he will be warm for a day, Set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.

 

[pmonett]

StuReeves
I stopped buying music about eight years ago - because of DRM and because I don't like being taken for a thief when I pay good money for a legitimate product.
I heard DRM mentioned with iTunes once and instantly decided never to buy it. I forbid it from my daughter as well and got her a no name vanilla MP3 player.
Vista is just the next thing on the market that is forbidden in my home.

You know Steve, some people actually do follow through on their decisions .

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[Grenage]

Easier to go down to your local music store and buy second-hand CDs, anyway. £2.99 for an album, rip them to a quality that suits you. That's what I do.

Carlsberg don't run I.T departments, but if they did they'd probably be more fun.

 

[harebrain]

Record industry & Hollywood are usually a few years behind the times, but when they see the bottom line drop, then they will react.

Yeah... they'll raise the prices of CDs and movie tickets.

That's how they always react. They never conclude that falling revenues are effects of their own business practices. And they can't figure out how to capitalize on new technology. So they make the products of the old technology more expensive and try to obstuct the use of new technology.

 

[Sympology]

The ironic thing is, that many people, me included, used to download track to see if the music worth buying. I've proberly bought 30 - 50 cd's as a direct result of downloading the MP3's off dodgy sites.

The record and movie industry is completly blinkered in their approach.

They think that
1 download = -1 sale.

Do you honestly think that if someone downloaded 100 CDs / Films, that if this stopped, they would immediatly run out and buy 100 full priced cd / dvd's? I think not.

Yet, myself and many others have downloaded the tracks, thought, this band is great, I want a better verions i.e cd.
It's all greed, that's why CD & DVD's cost twice as much in the UK as the US. They cost no more to make, ship, store etc. Justy pure greed.
Just look at Vista as a classic example of greed:
$1 US = £1 Sterling
I won't buy Vista because of DRM (remember this will be in many HD-DVD players as well), but sheer cost and bully boy tactics.



Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[strongm]

>Just look at Vista as a classic example of greed:
>$1 US = £1 Sterling

This has been going on for years, and is not unique to Vista or Microsoft

 

[stefanwagner]

Dual-booting and running a VM are two totally different things, not related to each other.

don't visit my homepage:

http://home.arcor.de/hirnstrom/bewerbung

 

[pmonett]

DRM under Vista does seem to have a negative impact on performance even when dealing with non-media data. This report outlines the pervasive nature of DRM :

"I received quite a few responses from people who have had similar issues and it seems that DRM [Digital Rights Management] may be the most probable cause. They've found that Vista tries to check each file to see if there is a protection flag on it or not before even deleting the file."

So Vista performance is a dog because of DRM, despite some people's assurances that it would only impact viewing and handling of media.

Just what I thought.

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[Sympology]

Intrestingly, The new Adobe Flash player has DRM built in.....

Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[tfg13]

pmonett, I just read the article you pointed to. Interestingly enough, the "forensics" guy claims to be copying files. Don't know what "laws" are in that guys location, but I don't remember ever using the OS to copy the entire drive. As for "deleting" files, ummmmmm, isn't he a forensics consultant?

He then makes the statement:

I received quite a few responses from people who have had similar issues and it seems that DRM [Digital Rights Management] may be the most probable cause. They've found that Vista tries to check each file to see if there is a protection flag on it or not before even deleting the file.

"seems" and "They've" stick out like a sore thumb. Doesn't make any mention of how "they" came about that decision, or who "they" are. I guess I can send him an email and tell him I don't agree, but then again, I might not be in his "they" group.

As an analyst myself, I can see how some of these new "features" can cause problems, but we must overcome them with all new systems that come around, not just one OS. Ever try to crack a Mac with FileVault?

 

[pmonett]

we must overcome them with all new systems that come around, not just one OS

Hmm. Is Apple putting DRM into its OS X-point-something ? Not that I'm aware of (I admit to not following MAC stuff very closely). Is Unix tinkering with DRM ? Of course not ! Unix is an OS, not a toy box. Is Linux implementing DRM in its 2000+ kernels ? Obviously not, given that the penguins universally loath it.
So, unless I'm sorely mistaken, as far as OSes are concerned, the problem is Microsoft and nobody else.
And this nonsense has gone too far. I'm sorry for the furniture in Steve's office, but I really do hope that Vista becomes a failure as dismal as Windows ME.
As for me, I'll stick with XP until they pry the hologrammed disc from my cold, dead fingers. XP is not itself perfect, far from, but it's the best OS ever to come out of Redmond, bar none.

Death to Vista !

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[tfg13]

You would be mistaken. Mac OS does indeed deal with DRM. Hence, IPod. Anyway, other OS's are having to deal with DRM, it's just whether or not they choose to comply, or ignore.

As for Vista, I read a very interesting article that may shoot MS in the foot with Vista:

http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423

Seems that as soon as people realize that MS has the "right" to terminate the OS, there should be no more sales. Like to see someone fight it and win though....

 

[Opieo]

I think pmonett was saying that the other OS's do not have DRM built into the OS themselves. The programs that are added to them do. Although, this is simply an interpretation of what Pascal was saying. I too do not follow Mac, so I don't know, maybe iTunes is automatically included with the OS. But at the very least, it wouldn't be a huge main factor of the OS, but just the one program.

~
Give a man some fire, he will be warm for a day, Set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.

 

[Lienori]

True, tfg13, but it's nothing new in the MS (or OS licence) world. The fact is that people simply don't care.

They're not wrong, life's too short if you don't care about computers. It's just a shame that they are in the majority, and majority rule out.

 

[pmonett]

Again, I'm no Mac expert, but I doubt that Ipod functionality is built into the OS itself. It seems to me that the Ipod is an external piece of kit that is not mandatory to possess in order to use a Mac.

As for life being too short, I agree it is. Until you find yourself without any credit because your rating tanked because your ID was stolen among the myriad insecure systems that have been put in place all over the world.
Or until you find out that some crappy government database has listed you as a threat to national security because your initials, your shoe size and the fact that you googled for the words airport and security in the last 60 days makes you a suspect.

Then I'll bet you get real interested in computer security. Unfortunately, it's too late for you at that point.

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[Lienori]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely. The masses just don't care enough until it matters, when, as you say, it is too late.

One day people will wake up and look at the world, and say "how the hell did we let this happen".

 

[Stevehewitt]

Apple's DRM/iTunes software is a download automatically included when you do a system update. It's not forced, but by default it will try and download it.

Worse off though, is that if you install Vista using Boot Camp, Apple will install iTunes and their software downloader/updater application on your Vista system before you even log on.

Mac, Windows - both guilty.




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson