is IT really going to be Vista? 14

[wolluf]

could vista be the proverbial straw (that breaks the camel's back)?

MS charge ridiculous prices for their operating system(s) - given their complete market dominance.

MS have developed total paranoia over piracy - how long before WGA runs into a major legal battle with another large corporation (or 2)?

Having touted below par o/s for years (windows 3, 95, 98, ME), they belatedly developed their NT flavour - and got it reasonably right with XP (all the 'security' issues are only there because they are so successful). The operating system serves most people reasonably well. So why replace it. One word - revenue.

Complications. XP comes in Home and Pro - basically so they could charge a premium for Pro. This also increases support issues. Vista is at least doubling this (same reason again - revenue). No benefit to the customer. One version is a lot easier to support - but they can't charge premium rates for it. What are the development costs to hobble the basic o/s (which is what they do). We, the customers pay for that.

What are the development costs for 'activation' (which immediately kick-started a whole new piracy operation which wasn't there previously - Newton, he say, to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) and WGA? Who pays for this - the customer of course.

I fix PCs in peoples homes. Virtually nobody is interested in the 'interface' (other than it doesn't change too much, so the little technical expertise already gained isn't lost), but look at Aero. People mainly want machines that will surf their favourite sites, send & receive email, do some word processing, let their kids run games/messenger, working at a reasonable speed.

There is no reasonable alternative (ubuntu is best linux I've tried in years, but its still not an alternative), and Vista will go on new PCs of course, so it will probably be business as usual. But having beta tested Vista for a year or so now, all I can see is it need lots more resources and gives very little extra. And has more annoying things that need turning off (another observation - people mainly are not impressed with constant 'should this be run' type questions, which Vista seems to abound in).

Sounds like a rant - oh well, its been a while!

 

[Stevehewitt]

The technology is there for content copyright holders to use if they wish. They can chose to only allow people with HDMI compliant monitors to view the content, and nobody else. Or they can chose to allow non-HDMI compliant monitors to view HD content in standard def, or they can decide not to use it at all.

By default all content will work as in XP. Only if the author/copyright holder wants to use the amored tunnel (I like that phrase!) will it be used.

If you chose to display your HD content that you made yourself then unless you implement some DRM wrapping/instructions on it then it will be played as usual.

MS are giving content holders the ability to put their content through the armoured tunnel if they want to - as this will ensure that people cannot syphon the output destined for a monitor onto some other recording device.

Cheers,




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[Ed2020]

Guys,

Have just finished listening to an interesting podcast on the security aspects of Vista, some of which have already been discussed here. Thought it may add some clarification to some topics covered by this thread:

http://media.grc.com/sn/SN-066.mp3

There was also an earlier episode which covered Vista's new TCP/IP stack (which I do not believe has been mentioned in this thread (apologies if I've missed it)):

http://media.grc.com/sn/SN-051.mp3

Anyone interested in anymore of these podcasts can pick them up from here, along with lower bitrate versions and transcripts for those on slower connections:

http://www.grc.com/SecurityNow.htm

On a final point I would also like to thank Stevehewitt for his contributions to this discussion. In my opinion he has offered some extremely consistent and balanced views. Have a star.

Ed Metcalfe.

Please do not feed the trolls.....

 

[pmonett]

From the ComputerWorld article :

Matt Rosoff, lead analyst at research firm Directions On Microsoft, asserts that this process does not bode well for new content formats such as Blu-ray and HD-DVD, neither of which are likely to survive their association with DRM technology. "I could not be more skeptical about the viability of the DRM included with Vista, from either a technical or a business standpoint," Rosoff stated. "It's so consumer-unfriendly that I think it's bound to fail -- and when it fails, it will sink whatever new formats content owners are trying to impose."

Looks like, even inside Microsoft, not everyone appreciates this "content-secure" implementation.

Second thing : concerning the BitLocker drive-encryption functionality. I understand that encrypting one's drive is a non-mandatory, voluntary process. I also understand that, apparently, everything has been thought through in terms of data recovery and data integrity. Good points for Microsoft there. There is only one thing that worries me : the article clearly states that the functionality is for "testers, early adopters, and security architects".
So Mr. Joe User is not in that list, yet the functionality is shipping with the general product. Knowing Microsoft, I can hardly believe that there will never be a popup hinting that "you can make your data more secure than ever before !". Anyone care to indicate what the popup will say ? I fear that grandmas and grandsons all over will authorize the encryption without giving it a second thought. The big question is : what are they going to do with their USB key ?
Where will it be when they need it most ? With the dog's chew toys ?

Pascal.


I've got nothing to hide, and I'd very much like to keep that away from prying eyes.

 

[Ed2020]

pmonett,

Very good point regarding the Bitlocker functionality. There is rather more to it than simply making the facility available - proper education is required as well.

Having said that isn't this a risk with any security measure of this nature (at least any security that's worth anything)? If you lose your key you're going to be stuffed. If there's a way around this then surely your security isn't actually secure...

Ed Metcalfe.

Please do not feed the trolls.....

 

[Stevehewitt]

I posted a note about this earlier on:

In terms of BitLocker - it's only on Enterprise and Ultimate editons of Vista

Bitlocker will only be avaliable to consumers via Ultimate Edition.

Enabling Bitlocker on Vista does require jumping through some hoops.

So essentially, based on the Grandma idea:

[ul]
[li]Grandma would have to purcahse a system with a TPM on the motherboard[/li]
[li]Grandma would then need to ensure she is using Windows Vista Ultimate Edition - the most expensive version money can buy[/li]
[li]Grandma would need to go into Control Panel, Select Security, Click on BitLocker Drive Encryption.[/li]
[li]Finally, Grandma would need to create a new partition for some of the BitLocker system files[/li]
[/ul]

It would be possible for Grandma to do BitLocker, but I doubt if she would do it accidentally any more than she could format her system partition by mistake.

Cheers,






Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[jsteph]

Many interesting points brought up here...but back to the original question about whether--and how quickly--the market will adopt this new OS.

There appears, at least in all I've read, to be some consensus in the trade press that it will be a slower adoptation than MS expects. After reading more about it, it appears to me to be a case of changing the user-interface into a video game--and requiring significant hardware upgrade to support it. I've read at least 5 major reviews in which the reviewer questioned whether there was anything compelling in the OS to move the market (especially the business market) to adoption.

One doesn't need that muscle to implement ipV6, bitlocker, DRM, the extra security, or any of the other more business-centric improvements. Yet the Home-Basic version is the only one offered without the high-end video requirements.

Using history as a guide--I think the market will eventually be all-vista-all-the-time, but I think that won't be the case for at least 2 years--and I base this not so much on the lack of compelling features--because that never seems to matter at the end of the day--but on the steep hardware specs.
--Jim

 

[Stevehewitt]

Yeah, I don't think it will take off as well as MS think, although I reckon that the business market will be quicker to adopt.

Main reasons are the secuirty and management features, and delivery mechanisms.
E.G Customers with SA get it free, It's had a huge development life cycle which in theory gives people longer to test against it and the businesses get is months before consumers.

However I think there's also more fan fare with end users. Consumers are hearing about 'Vista' - where as Windows ME and XP weren't so well known about until their new computer was delivered and users saw the boot screen!

This is also going to be the first OS MS have released since the SA scheme was implemented. (I think?!)
Whilst the core of SA is to provide free upgrades during the term of the contract; there's also a multitude of support such as additional testing kits and training programmes that are also free. This may help / encourage businesses to adopt sooner than previous Windows releases have.

(Just a quick note jsteph is that the Aero interface doesn't have to run at all. For example I have a machine next to me with a decent spec but a very crap on-board graphics card - so Aero doesn't and won't run, even though it's the Ultimate edition of Vista. Essentially Vista minimum requirements do not include a fancy graphics card - unless you want to run the Aero interface.)

Cheers,




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[jrbarnett]

I saw this and thought readers may be interested:

Its an in depth analysis of the End User License Agreement for Vista, you know the things most of us just click "Agree" without much thought. However, there's a lot to think about given this article.

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2006/10/29/microsoft_vista_eula_analysis/

John

 

[Stevehewitt]

True, but the EULA has been revised and changed since then so the EULA analysis in that link posted is out of date.

The Reg also reported that MS have changed the EULA shortly after the (deserved!) criticism over the EULA:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/03/ms_vista_climb-down/

You can find the reasons by MS for changing the EULA here:

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/w...-to-windows-vista-retail-licensing-terms.aspx

And the full EULA here:

http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx

Cheers,




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[Grenage]

Aye, I think the regdeveloper article was a little unfair. The issue regarding virtual machines wasn't truly unreasonable, and you can see where they are coming from (considering where Vista is going with DRM). The issue regarding there being too many versions; damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Of course, we've err, always got the option to disagree with the EULA and use another OS, don't we.... /wink




Carlsberg don't run I.T departments, but if they did they'd probably be more fun.

 

[Sympology]

regarding there being too many versions"

I agree, how many "versions" of Unix & Linux are there?

Also would you want a home edition full of games and direct x drivers, multimedia running your servers...No thought not...
I actually get a little wound up about people moaning about Microsoft dominating and abusing their power, but let's face it, how many companies have made milllions / billions thanks to MS....but that's a whoooollle different arena.

Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

 

[Stevehewitt]

Yeah, the versions mention makes me laugh. As soon as I hear it I think "yep, you really haven't looked into this have you...".

Excluding the architecture differences (x64/x86) and the N and K editions (e.g. the versions nobody buys that comes without media player) Vista has:

Home Basic
Home Premium
Business
Enterprise
Ultimate

Well Enterprise isn't retail, so if we take that out then we're left with 4 editions.

To put that into perspective, Windows XP has:

Home
Professional
Media Centre Edition

So Vista has one additional version. Can't really see that as being a huge leap into the world of confusion!




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[jsteph]

Also would you want a home edition full of games and direct x drivers, multimedia running your servers...

I say this lighheartedly but it's based in a certain wtf'ness:
If they're targeting versions to 'home' and 'business', then why--in XP Professional--is there a little puppy dog that wags his tail and winks at you when you go to search for files, why is the network browser--which was hokey enough being called 'network neighborhood'--called an even more hokey 'My Network Places'?.

Maybe in Vista Business Premium they can bring back "Bob"...
--Jim

 

[Stevehewitt]

Can't disagree with that! One of my biggest irritation was that bloody dog... on a 'professional' edition of a OS!

Doesn't seem to be much (or any at all from memory) of that type of thing. Search is a dialogue box or integrated into the shell and Network Neighborhood / My Network Places are thankfully now called 'Network'.

Thank god!




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[jrbarnett]

Steve - you forgot to include XP Tablet edition, that's four.

John

 

[Glenn9999]

Regarding "too many versions":

Home Basic
Home Premium
Business
Enterprise
Ultimate

There really are "too many versions". I've heard the claim that Home Basic is so gutted that most people won't want it. Acer's CEO is even mentioning this as a strategy to move people into the "higher-up" versions:

The new experience you hear of, if you get [Vista Home] Basic, you won't feel it at all," Wong reportedly stated, adding that the company is actually actively undermining its own lower tier in an effort to persuade customers to move up the value chain.

And perhaps most interesting is this:

In Wong's interview with PC Pro, he complained that manufacturers must pay 10% more to license Vista Home Premium than they currently do for XP Home Edition, which is not divided into "basic" and "premium" tiers. He indicated that this does directly result in price hikes for PCs, of about 1% to 2%.


(The feeling I'm getting here is that Acer's going to be preloading Home Premium on all their general consumer computers)

http://www.betanews.com/article/Whats_Behind_Acers_Vista_Complaints/1162226968

 

[Glenn9999]

The link of the original Wong interview:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/96566/pc-maker-fumes-at-vista-price-hike.html

To continue the original quote from above:

Wong claims that Microsoft's own marketing machine has undermined Vista Home Basic. "Right at the beginning they started talking about the experience of [Vista Home] Premium. Premium is the real Vista," he said.

And another good one:
Acer isn't the first PC manufacturer to complain about the inadequacies of Vista Home Basic. Other OEMs, including Evesham Technology, have told PC Pro that they have no plans to ship that version on their PCs as they feel there will be no consumer demand.

(Yes "Vista" is going to be more expensive!)

More criticism from Lenovo (the old IBM):

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/97145/lenovo-sceptical-about-vista.html

(like I said a long time ago in this thread, it's NOT hard to find this stuff - and this article points out another factoid Mr. Hewitt misses - take those versions he listed, multiply them by 2 and that's the number of versions you really have - 32-bit and 64-bit versions)

 

[Stevehewitt]

glynn9999
If you want to dispute the versions then don't put it in brackets and without references.

Yes, there are x64 and x86 version of most of the products. And yes, there's the starter, N and K editions - all of which I addresses (apart from starter).

Starter, N and K are all on XP
Home and Pro are on XP
A different VLK edtion is on XP
XP has Media Centre and Tablet editions (Cheers John! ;-))
And yes, there are 32-bit and 64-bit editions of most of them.

Vista has Starter, N and K editions
Vista has Home and Pro
Vista has a VLK only edition
Vista has a media centre version called Home Premium
Vista has no tablet edition, but does have Ultimate
(XP has no ultimate!)

Versions are pretty much the same.


RE: Vista Home Basic

Interesting, but it's all in the context of what the end user wants.

Once you include inflation, all comparitable versions of Vista Vs. XP makes Vista the same price of a bit cheaper.

Home Basic is comparable with XP Home. The core is still Vista with a lot of the improvements it will bring -however it will lack features such as:

VSS, scheduled backup, BitLocker, EFS, Aero Glass UI (including Flip 3D and live thumbnails), some games, Media Centre stuff and some more advanced networking features.

When you think that Vista Home Basic is the same price as Windows XP Home before adding on inflation I think it's a pretty good deal. Personally I wouldn't touch it, but i'm a power users who will be playing with domain network, IIS7 and backups.

A lot of the removed features and features that never existed in XP Home anyway, however for the same money you are getting the improve OS core such as IE7+, UAC, rebuild IP stacks, better UI etc.

Cheers,




Steve.

"They have the internet on computers now!" - Homer Simpson

 

[kHz]

Can't anyone just let this thread die?

 

[tfg13]

I'll give you a star for that KHz!