Up with "UP"...Another reason why English is baffling 5

[tgreer]

Shaquille O'Neal...he's good!
Shaquille O'Neal...he's bad!

The first can denote that he is skillful, or moral, or has just achieved something notable or difficult.

The second denotes just the opposite, but connotes a certain prideful attitude or invulnerability. In some contexts, the connotation overwhelms the denotation.

Thus, they do not "mean" the same thing.

Words are vectors. They are in motion, and have both a past and a future. They may intersect, or sit adjacent to each other, but no two words can occupy the same place at the same time.

In thinking this over, the best example of "nearly identical meaning" I can think of, is:

"I like to drive." and "I like driving." (Use any verb).

However, I see shades of meaning in each these, so while close, the meaning isn't IDENTICAL. I think "to drive" conveys something a bit more general, while "driving" narrows the meaning down just slightly. There is more "action" in "driving".

Thomas D. Greer

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[xlbo]

I would disagree as per my previous post. Those sentences, said by the same person, MAY mean different things or MAY in fact mean the same thing (to the person that is saying them) - depends on HOW the person is using them. If those 2 same statements were said by different people then it would be down to how THEY interpret those statements as to whether they could be considered the same. YOU may not consider them the same but that is not to say others do as well. I reiterate my point

A teacher saying that something is "good" may mean exactly the same as a teenager saying something is "bad"

At the end of the day, we can interpret what people say however we want but if someone wants 2 different sentences to mean the same thing to them.....they can. If I want "Hi" and "hello" to mean the same things to me then I can !!


Rgds, Geoff

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[Stella740pl]

stackdump,

In every language different words get assigned to objects, moods whatever. English is unusual in that many words for the same thing (derived from different languages) have entered into the vocabulary.

Um, how many languages do you know?
Why do you think English is so unique in this?

 

[tgreer]

xlbo - you're invoking the "Humpty Dumpty" system of language, which someone posted earlier.

You are saying that, you can apply whatever filters you choose on meaning until, to YOU, two words/phrases mean exactly the same thing. Such wouldn't be necessary if the words/phrases in question ALREADY meant the same thing.

I'll concede that people do exactly what you describe. Everything we hear, or read, goes through this filtration process. When you see or hear the word "tree", every tree you've ever experienced goes through your mind in a hundredth of a second. That gives, to you, a specific meaning to the word "tree". A unique meaning. My own understanding of the word "tree" differs. They overlap to a great extent, so much that the differences, MOST OF THE TIME, are overwhelmed by the similarities. We, usually, have no difficulty understanding each other.

To illustrate, when you say "look at that beautiful tree", it doesn't matter that in addition to various plants, including the giant sequoias I saw last year, and the beautiful globe willow in my backyard - "decision trees" or "ISAM trees" or "family trees" also go through my head. I know you mean THAT TREE RIGHT THERE. But I had to derive that meaning. I had to abstract a specific meaning, based on my own internal "tree universe".

However, the differences always exist, between different words, and even the SAME words uttered or heard by different people. If that weren't so, then no one would ever have to say "that's not what I meant", or wonder what, exactly, someone "meant by that".



Thomas D. Greer

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Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting

 

[Dimandja]

>A teacher saying that something is "good" may mean exactly the same as a teenager saying something is "bad"

I disagree.

That same teenager also has the word "good" in his/her vocabulary. The teenager use of "bad" to mean "good" is not a direct translation of "good"; it is "good" with something extra!.

"good" and "bad" do have different nuances when either is used to mean "good". In fact the teenager is conveying that nuance when "bad" is dragged as "baad". A short "bad" by the teenager means "bad".

I know people who use such language, and there is no mistaking when their "bad" means "bad" or "good with an edge" (it never equals plain "good").

 

[xlbo]

That is YOUR interpretation of what they are saying though isn't it Dimandja ??

That same teenager may well have the word "good" in their vocabulary but that means nothing. The word "good" to them may have connotations that it doesn't have to a teacher. To that teenager, the extra connotations associated with "bad" may be the same connotations that the teacher associates with "good".

I do take your point though Thomas, although it also kind of illustrates mine (regarding the usage of "that's not what I meant") in that the INTENT is there for a phrase to be interpreted in a certain way (maybe in exactly the same way as a similar phrase) but for any number of reasons, the LISTENER may interpret it entirely differently !!

Rgds, Geoff

Three things are certain. Death, taxes and lost data. DPlank is to blame

Please read FAQ222-2244 before you ask a question

 

[Dimandja]

>That is YOUR interpretation of what they are saying though isn't it Dimandja ??

Is it? Consider the teenager telling his mom: "Some more of that bad soup, mom!". Unlikely.

 

[xlbo]

as per my previous previous post then - it is all about context !!

<aside>
"Some more of that good soup, mom!".

just as unlikely IMHO !!
</aside>

Rgds, Geoff

Three things are certain. Death, taxes and lost data. DPlank is to blame

Please read FAQ222-2244 before you ask a question

 

[stackdump]

In every language different words get assigned to objects, moods whatever. English is unusual in that many words for the same thing (derived from different languages) have entered into the vocabulary.


Why do you think English is so unique in this?[/i]

I didnt say English was unique in this respect. Many languages around the world are a melting pot of others.

I said that English was unusual in that it combines words from more international languages than most others.

Um, how many languages do you know?

I speak four languages, English, French, Dutch and German. Most of them badly. I also did some Latin at school. (I'm English by the way).

 

[Stella740pl]

I said that English was unusual in that it combines words from more international languages than most others.

Well, that's the statement I don't completely agree with - even though I don’t know statistics, and I speak just "some", not "most" languages. I speak 3 - Russian, English, Ukrainian; understand or know bits and pieces from some more. I won't speak for those languages at which I am not proficient, but can say for sure, that at least Russian and Ukrainian absorbed plenty of foreign words (from a plethora of different languages) and also have sometimes many words for the same thing.

I would suspect that this phenomenon exist in many other languages (even though not all, perhaps).

But I guess we drifted away from the original topic. Let's not hijack it.

As for the original topic, I agree that English is baffling (but probably not only English?), and I don't even need reasoning to prove that!

 

[stackdump]

No doubt that the same effect occurs elsewhere.

The statistics for English are that 16% of words in the English language are classed as truly Olde English word derivates. So obviously 84% (or 5 words in 6) are from foreign words or derivates of foreign words.

The reason is all in the history of the UK, from being invaded by Indo-European tribes/nations, to empire building (the empire covering 25% of the earths surface).

As an example here are some words that are common English words, but are actually French in origin;
close, reply, odour, annual, demand, chamber, desire, power, ire.

And Norse origin...
anger, raise, ill, bask, skill, skin, skirt, scatter, skip.

Surprising! I have no idea where the word "up" originates from.

 

[SantaMufasa]

From
Olde English: up, upp
Olde Norse: upp
Danish: op
Olde High German: uf
German: auf
Gothic: iup
Sanskrit: upa

...all meaning "up, upward"

Mufasa
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[PaulTEG]

FWIW::Gaelic: thuas

 

[SantaMufasa]

Yep, Paul, I can definitely see "up's" etymology from the Gaelic

Mufasa
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[UniqueFD]

I've just been bringing myself UP to speed on this thread:

Everything we hear, or read, goes through this filtration process

I agree. In psychology, this is called, 'Projection'.

Here is the first 'for-instance' I found with Google - point 2b.

So, in reading UP on the rest of this thread, we can sum UP that how UP you are on how other people read 'UP' will help you to explain what you mean by 'UP' and ensure others properly pick UP your meaning and don't mess UP!

Tony
___________________________________________________
Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing (Solomon)

 

[SantaMufasa]

Two Thumbs UP Tony !!!

Mufasa
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[craigsboyd]

Yep, Paul, I can definitely see "up's" etymology from the Gaelic

LOL!

http://www.sweetpotatosoftware.com

 

[SilentAiche]

Craig,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw it that way (which was the way intended, of course)!!

Tim

(and I thought it was because I went to public school before college...)

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[PaulTEG]

mea culpa ...

I had a point about it's potential relationship, but the more I think about it, it only sounds 'like' the others depending on the dialect.

--Paul

 

[SantaMufasa]

Just out of curiosity, Paul, and because I "collect" accents and dialects as a hobby (it's less expensive than stamp or coin collecting), what Gaelic dialect makes "thuas" sound similar to "up", and could you phonetically spell their pronunciation?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[

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