Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations IamaSherpa on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Up with "UP"...Another reason why English is baffling 5
- Thread starter SantaMufasa
- Start date
- Status
- Thread starter
- #24
SantaMufasa
Technical User
Elanor,
Your participations here on Tek-Tips tell me you are cool; I trust your boyfriend's assessment that you are hot. Either way, we're glad you are a Tek-Tipster !
![[santa]](/data/assets/smilies/santa.gif "[santa] [santa]")
Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
Your participations here on Tek-Tips tell me you are cool; I trust your boyfriend's assessment that you are hot. Either way, we're glad you are a Tek-Tipster !
Mufasa(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
![[blush]](/data/assets/smilies/blush.gif "[blush] [blush]")
! Thanks for the boost at the end of a loooooong day!I have to heartily disagree. Two phrases that use different words can never mean exactly the same thing. Each word, no matter how closely related in meaning they appear, never mean EXACTLY the same thing. Each word has its own distinct etymology. Words have a declarative meaning, and allusive meaning, an implied meaning... there is the language of classification, and the language of experience. Consider our word "up".
Does "eat your dinner" mean the same thing as "eat up"?
I'm guessing that some of you would say "yes", and might tell me that both phrases are an imperative to consume. But they do not mean the same thing. One sentence is more formal than the other. "Eat your dinner" could be said in a disapproving tone. "Eat up!" implies a hearty invitation. The former might be intoned in a dining room, the latter shouted at a picnic. Each has a distinct MOOD.
No matter how close they are, .9999999 does not equal 1.00001.
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
Does "eat your dinner" mean the same thing as "eat up"?
I'm guessing that some of you would say "yes", and might tell me that both phrases are an imperative to consume. But they do not mean the same thing. One sentence is more formal than the other. "Eat your dinner" could be said in a disapproving tone. "Eat up!" implies a hearty invitation. The former might be intoned in a dining room, the latter shouted at a picnic. Each has a distinct MOOD.
No matter how close they are, .9999999 does not equal 1.00001.
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
- Thread starter
- #28
SantaMufasa
Technical User
So, tgreer and Dimandja, you are both suggesting that by using different words, that the meanings of sentences cannot be identical? ...That "Eat what's on your plate," and "Eat what's on your dish," cannot mean the same thing. True synonyms, by definition must be synonymous...interchangable without changing meaning. I'll bet if I offered you each $100,000 to come up with two sentences using different words that had the same meaning, you'd find a way.![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
Mufasa(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
>So, tgreer and Dimandja, you are both suggesting that by using different words, that the meanings of sentences cannot be identical?...
I can only speak for myself. I am saying that the examples you previously gave did not illustrate your point.
As to "plate" and "dish", are you saying these two are synonymous? As in "The republican party is holding a $1000 dish fundraiser"?
I'll take your bribe though.![[dazed]](/data/assets/smilies/dazed.gif "[dazed] [dazed]")
I can only speak for myself. I am saying that the examples you previously gave did not illustrate your point.
As to "plate" and "dish", are you saying these two are synonymous? As in "The republican party is holding a $1000 dish fundraiser"?
I'll take your bribe though.
The words "plate" and "dish" do not mean the same thing. A "dish" could be a bowl. A plate could be in your head or colliding along a fault line.
Synonym is a matter of DEGREE. No two words can possibly mean the EXACT same thing, just as no two numbers can be EXACTLY equal. In the absolute sense, there are no synonyms. Find me a dictionary that gives the exact same definition, down to every detail, for two different words. And of course if you find such a pair, one of them is wrong.
I will agree that for everyday conversation, two words or phrases can have no PRACTICAL difference. I used the word "pair" above. I could have said "brace of words" or "find such a duo". No practical difference. But NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL? Not so!
I'm an accomplished poet. You'd have no idea the amount of agonizing and research goes into picking the precise word, with all of the particular shades of meaning, nuance, history, allusion, and association that goes with that word (and no other).
We all know that lawyers, to use another example, take a similar degree of care in their wording.
I guess it boils down to what you mean by "mean".
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
Synonym is a matter of DEGREE. No two words can possibly mean the EXACT same thing, just as no two numbers can be EXACTLY equal. In the absolute sense, there are no synonyms. Find me a dictionary that gives the exact same definition, down to every detail, for two different words. And of course if you find such a pair, one of them is wrong.
I will agree that for everyday conversation, two words or phrases can have no PRACTICAL difference. I used the word "pair" above. I could have said "brace of words" or "find such a duo". No practical difference. But NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL? Not so!
I'm an accomplished poet. You'd have no idea the amount of agonizing and research goes into picking the precise word, with all of the particular shades of meaning, nuance, history, allusion, and association that goes with that word (and no other).
We all know that lawyers, to use another example, take a similar degree of care in their wording.
I guess it boils down to what you mean by "mean".
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
So Humpty Dumpty can make two different words mean precisely the same thing, because he chooses to be the "master" of them.
Sounds like a programmer to me!
As soon as he speaks to someone else, however, the system fails.
In fact, we have an impact on the meaning of a word each and every time we use it. We either reinforce a particular meaning, by supplying a similar context, or we can change (add to) the meaning, by supplying a new context.
Look what happened to the word "gay", for example:
It used to mean "happy", then it meant "homosexual", and now I'm hearing it used to mean "stupid" or "lame" (another example). How can anyone argue that "gay" means EXACTLY THE SAME THING as "happy", "homosexual", or "lame"?
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
Sounds like a programmer to me!
As soon as he speaks to someone else, however, the system fails.
In fact, we have an impact on the meaning of a word each and every time we use it. We either reinforce a particular meaning, by supplying a similar context, or we can change (add to) the meaning, by supplying a new context.
Look what happened to the word "gay", for example:
It used to mean "happy", then it meant "homosexual", and now I'm hearing it used to mean "stupid" or "lame" (another example). How can anyone argue that "gay" means EXACTLY THE SAME THING as "happy", "homosexual", or "lame"?
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
- Thread starter
- #33
SantaMufasa
Technical User
Thomas,
You have eloquently proven that even a single word has multiple meanings (senses). You said yourself
None of us is saying that one word equals another word (in that a single word's list of various senses/meanings is identical to another word's list of its senses/meanings); we are asserting that given one sense of a word, it can (as you have capably shown) mean the same as a specific sense of another word.
Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
You have eloquently proven that even a single word has multiple meanings (senses). You said yourself
You have agreed that in one sense, "gay" means "happy"; in another sense "gay" means "homosexual"; and yet another sense "gay" means "stupid/lame".Thomas said:
None of us is saying that one word equals another word (in that a single word's list of various senses/meanings is identical to another word's list of its senses/meanings); we are asserting that given one sense of a word, it can (as you have capably shown) mean the same as a specific sense of another word.
Mufasa(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
But a word is at least, if not more, than a sum of it's parts! I'm saying that ALL of the meanings of "gay" are valid and are associated with the word at all times. One cannot say "I'm gay" and "I'm happy", and have both phrases mean the same thing.
I've heard people use the phrase "I'm gay", with the surface meaning of "I'm happy", but it invariably causes a laugh. Intentionally or unintentionally, it meant more/less/other than "I'm happy".
The ONLY thing that means "I'm happy" is "I'm happy". Anything else you might say would have its own overtones, nuances, and shades of meaning.
Moreover, each time you say "I'm happy", you add something to the meaning. So in an absolute sense, it never means the same thing twice.
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
I've heard people use the phrase "I'm gay", with the surface meaning of "I'm happy", but it invariably causes a laugh. Intentionally or unintentionally, it meant more/less/other than "I'm happy".
The ONLY thing that means "I'm happy" is "I'm happy". Anything else you might say would have its own overtones, nuances, and shades of meaning.
Moreover, each time you say "I'm happy", you add something to the meaning. So in an absolute sense, it never means the same thing twice.
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
It might be helpful to stop using the word "mean" in this discussion, before someone points out that I've said both:
"I'm gay" means "I'm happy" and then later "I'm gay" and "I'm happy" cannot ever mean the same thing.
Words have a "denotation" and a "connotation". In the first instance, one might say "I'm gay" to DENOTE that they are happy. However, the CONNOTATION of "I'm gay" influences the overall "meaning".
So "mean" is itself an inexact term. An utterance could "mean" someone was college-educated, regardless of the denotation of any of the words. Someone else could utter the same words, and it would "mean" they like to quote Shakespeare.
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
"I'm gay" means "I'm happy" and then later "I'm gay" and "I'm happy" cannot ever mean the same thing.
Words have a "denotation" and a "connotation". In the first instance, one might say "I'm gay" to DENOTE that they are happy. However, the CONNOTATION of "I'm gay" influences the overall "meaning".
So "mean" is itself an inexact term. An utterance could "mean" someone was college-educated, regardless of the denotation of any of the words. Someone else could utter the same words, and it would "mean" they like to quote Shakespeare.
Thomas D. Greer
Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting
context - it is all about context.
Thomas - yes, words have literal meanings but the IMPLIED meaning of different terms can be the same.
To take an earlier example:
Shaquille O'Neal...he's good!
Shaquille O'Neal...he's bad!
Dimandja has stated that these are different phrases because they have different "moods". True. If said by the same person. However, compare a teenager with a cap saying "Shaquille O'Neal...he's bad!" with a 60 y.o. retired teacher (with a basketball prediliction) saying "Shaquille O'Neal...he's good!". To the 2 different people, what they are saying, essentially means exactly the same thing.
To my mind, you cannot get too finickity with meanings of words as everyone has their own little naunces - you need to use a level of generalisation as otherwise you just get bogged down in the minutiae..
Rgds, Geoff
Three things are certain. Death, taxes and lost data. DPlank is to blame
Please read FAQ222-2244 before you ask a question
Thomas - yes, words have literal meanings but the IMPLIED meaning of different terms can be the same.
To take an earlier example:
Shaquille O'Neal...he's good!
Shaquille O'Neal...he's bad!
Dimandja has stated that these are different phrases because they have different "moods". True. If said by the same person. However, compare a teenager with a cap saying "Shaquille O'Neal...he's bad!" with a 60 y.o. retired teacher (with a basketball prediliction) saying "Shaquille O'Neal...he's good!". To the 2 different people, what they are saying, essentially means exactly the same thing.
To my mind, you cannot get too finickity with meanings of words as everyone has their own little naunces - you need to use a level of generalisation as otherwise you just get bogged down in the minutiae..
Rgds, Geoff
Three things are certain. Death, taxes and lost data. DPlank is to blame
Please read FAQ222-2244 before you ask a question
I think tgreer makes some good points, but I think the jury's out on this one.
The English language is sufficiently rich that there are many examples of words/phrases with totally overlapping meanings. (A Thesaurus covers a huge number of such examples).
There is clearly a difference between written and spoken English which can cause some problems, especially on knowing the mood of the comment when written. There are also formal and informal ways of saying the same thing. There are many words in common usage (slang terms) that convey the same message/meaning but usually in an abbreviated way.
Doesnt welcoming someone with "Hello" mean EXACTLY the same thing as "Hi"? i.e. they are interchangeable with no alteration of meaning.
Don't the two phrases "I came back yesterday" and "I returned yesterday" mean EXACTLY the same thing?
In fact, isnt the list of words and phrases that can mean EXACTLY the same thing endless?, rather than being heavily confined as you suggested? I think this must be true, otherwise we would all speak the English language in exactly the same way.
The English language is sufficiently rich that there are many examples of words/phrases with totally overlapping meanings. (A Thesaurus covers a huge number of such examples).
There is clearly a difference between written and spoken English which can cause some problems, especially on knowing the mood of the comment when written. There are also formal and informal ways of saying the same thing. There are many words in common usage (slang terms) that convey the same message/meaning but usually in an abbreviated way.
Doesnt welcoming someone with "Hello" mean EXACTLY the same thing as "Hi"? i.e. they are interchangeable with no alteration of meaning.
Don't the two phrases "I came back yesterday" and "I returned yesterday" mean EXACTLY the same thing?
In fact, isnt the list of words and phrases that can mean EXACTLY the same thing endless?, rather than being heavily confined as you suggested? I think this must be true, otherwise we would all speak the English language in exactly the same way.
As Thomas said: It depends on whay you mean by "mean". And especially what you mean by "mean EXACTLY the same thing". For my money, they DON'T mean EXACTLY the same thing. But that's just using my definintion of "mean".
Tracy Dryden
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.![[dragon]](/data/assets/smilies/dragon.gif "[dragon] [dragon]")
Tracy Dryden
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
No stackdump, I don't think so. I agree with xlbo that context is critical, and with tgreer that meaning and implication extends beyond the words themselves, especially with the spoken word where body langugage and intonation play a crucial role. But even with the written word, the differences exist.
==> Doesn't welcoming someone with "Hello" mean EXACTLY the same thing as "Hi"?
No, I think "Hello" is slightly more formal than "Hi". Put another way, I think "Hi" is a more familiar term. I don't answer the phone with "Hi" if I don't know who the caller is. In formal situations, I won't use "Hi" with the initial greeting. Similarly, when a good friend of mine comes into the office, I don't say "Hello". It's usually, "Hey", which to me, is even more informal, or familiar, then either "Hello" or "Hi".
==> Don't the two phrases "I came back yesterday" and "I returned yesterday"
Again, in context, they may not be the same. In golf, for example, the leader can "come back" to the field, but the leader doesn't "return" to the field.
==> In fact, isn't the list of words and phrases that can mean EXACTLY the same thing endless?, rather than being heavily confined as you suggested? I think this must be true, otherwise we would all speak the English language in exactly the same way.
I think the reverse is true. If all of these phrases mean exactly the same thing, why are there so many different phrases? I think people created new phrase because the existing one wasn't exactly right for the intended meaning. I submit there is very little confinement and it is from the subtleties that English earns its richness.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
==> Doesn't welcoming someone with "Hello" mean EXACTLY the same thing as "Hi"?
No, I think "Hello" is slightly more formal than "Hi". Put another way, I think "Hi" is a more familiar term. I don't answer the phone with "Hi" if I don't know who the caller is. In formal situations, I won't use "Hi" with the initial greeting. Similarly, when a good friend of mine comes into the office, I don't say "Hello". It's usually, "Hey", which to me, is even more informal, or familiar, then either "Hello" or "Hi".
==> Don't the two phrases "I came back yesterday" and "I returned yesterday"
Again, in context, they may not be the same. In golf, for example, the leader can "come back" to the field, but the leader doesn't "return" to the field.
==> In fact, isn't the list of words and phrases that can mean EXACTLY the same thing endless?, rather than being heavily confined as you suggested? I think this must be true, otherwise we would all speak the English language in exactly the same way.
I think the reverse is true. If all of these phrases mean exactly the same thing, why are there so many different phrases? I think people created new phrase because the existing one wasn't exactly right for the intended meaning. I submit there is very little confinement and it is from the subtleties that English earns its richness.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I agree with the point about intonation and punctuation etc. whether written or verbal. Ultimately we're discussing our ability to communicate, which is both symbolic (written), verbal and visual.
The reason English is subtle, is because it is not a 'mono' language, it is made up of words from many different languages. In every language different words get assigned to objects, moods whatever. English is unusual in that many words for the same thing (derived from different languages) have entered into the vocabulary. Many words meaning slightly different things have been incorporated too.
One of the enduring features of the English language is it's ever changing vocabulary. This unfortunately means that older texts become harder and harder to understand over time, but then again it adapts to allow us to continue communicating effectively.
Let's enjoy it.
- Status
Similar threads
