Unfair treatment to those with children in IT? 8

[BeckahC]

I am just wondering if this seems to happen to anyone else out there. I used to be considered an excellent programer, got excellent reviews and raises yearly. I had a baby earlier this year and now all of a sudden I am doing the same work (if not more) and being berated, given poor reviews and no raise this year at all!

I would not have considered that this was because of my new family status if my boss had not said that it seemed to him that I am thinking more of my family than of work! Which is true, but still ridiculous to note! I still do all of my work well and on time and all of the users of my programs are totally satisfied, as always... the only thing that has seemed to change is my boss's attitude towards me. The real kicker is that he seems to be doing the same thing to another woman in the group who had her baby a couple of months before me.

I am thinking this might be illegal, but am afraid to comment on it or I might get fired or "laid off" and I really need the benefits from this position, even though the pay is barely enough to cover childcare!

Any ideas, suggetions, kindred spirits out there?

BeckahC

 

[BeckahC]

Thanks Rosie... Actually my dept has a recent history of eliminating anyone who questions or tries to change things... I have been afraid to become one of my many friends and co-workers who "disappeared" during massive layoffs over the past year or so.

At this point, I WANT them to give me a package and show me the door - our packages are 2 weeks pay for every year you've been here and if you elect it to be paid out over time you remain covered by the Medical and Dental for that time - 3 months to find a better place to work doesn't sound so bad! Plus they usualy approve 1-2 years unemployment!

Also, I was supposed to be given papers to fill-out and sign prior to my review rating my own performance, a review is supposed to go over the differences between how you and your boss filled out the same questionaire. I was not given that. I was shown his review of me and then told to sign. That's it. I feel I was cheated out of speaking up for myself. At the time I was so surprised and upset, since it came out of the blue, I didn't feel much like talking... just nodded a few times, signed and left the office before I started tearing-up :-(

As for the review process, he could have written me up anytime if he felt I was not performing up to par - My record with the company is clean and excellent except for this one bad "mark". Everyone seems to be happy with my work except for the guy who can decide whether or not to put me in for a raise! (which he didn't, not even for cost of living that everyone gets yearly!)

Thios is a very frustrating place to work!

BeckahC

 

[bi]

I can't remember if you have said how large your company is. If it's large enough to have a decent HR dept. (hard to come by these days, large or small, I know), I'd go to HR and first, ask them to confirm what the procedure for reviews is (get the procedure in writing -- it should be in a policies and procedures manual), second, ask to see your complete review records (to make sure the guy didn't put a bogus self-review in your record), and depending on what you find out, either ask (nicely) that a self-review (which you should have with you when you go in there -- don't wait for them to ask you for it) be made part of the record or make an oral complaint and ask HR what can be done to remedy the situation.

But in the atmosphere you are describing, if you make the complaint, be prepared to get one of those layoff notices.

Good luck.

 

[rosieb]

BeckahC
Sounds ugly to me.

Again, don't know what employment prospects are like there, but here I know too many people who've spent over a year on job search (I know, I was one - I'm lucky, my partner could support us through it - tho' I hated the "kept woman" jibes I got from some others).

Personally (my opinion only) I'd look for something else, then complain and hope they offered a package before I resigned.

It's cruel and unfair but, for some reason, it's easier to find a job when you're in employment.

Remember, you deserve a better employer.

Rosie

 

[MattReed]

If you are keeping up your end of the bargain, then my previous response is somewhat flawed. I would think that it would be a foolish notion that anyone could have a child and not have it interfere with their job, at least a little bit. Sometimes I feel that employers are held up to excessively strict expectations. If this is not the case with you and your boss is being a jerk, then I suggest filing a complaint or leaving. Just remember that your job hasn't changed, even though your life has. We all owe a debt of gratitude to those who put their money on the line to give us employment. I hope that we aren't losing sight of that fact.

 

[rosieb]

MattReed
We all owe a debt of gratitude to those who put their money on the line to give us employment.

I disagree, we are employed to perform a function. They pay us for that. Purely a commercial transaction.

If we over-perform, is the employer "grateful"? Frequently not - many organisations will forget years of over-performance if they need to shave a bit off the bottom line, ie shed a few people. (I think the rot set in with the term "human resources" which implies people are interchangeable, a resource, like paperclips.)

The commercial environment for companies changes, they expect their staff to change. Similarly, it seems fair to me that when employees' circumstances change, the company should also adapt.

Having a child will interfere with the job, so will any number of other things. Would you expect to be sacked for breaking a leg?

Forget equality legislation and the like, it is actually in a company's best interests to hold on to experienced staff.

 

[BeckahC]

As far as going to HR... I am not sure I want to do that until I have something else lined up. All complaints must be followed up with the direct supervisor of the complaining employee and then that person's boss... mine would go to the Director who doesn't seem to care for me and the VP who likes to get rid of anyone who rocks the boat... It would be an interesting way to try to get a package though...

Honestly, if it were not for the fact that I see similar things happening to other moms in the group, I would have thought this was simply because the major system I played a key role in developing over the past few years and am now the main person programming, developing and maintaining, came in and took over for a system my boss wrote way back when he was a programmer (sooooo flawed and convoluted - I think the guy sucked as a programmer, but I have never said it to his face!;-)). But because he is going hard on the other moms in the group, the fact that my system replaced his is likely just icing on the cake for him.

Perhaps having a child does interfere in some ways... I must say I have learned many new ways of time management, organizational skills, and getting things done faster and better since becoming a mom. I feel I have been much less for procrastination and much more for the "If we're going to do this, let's get it done fast and done right!" attitude. I think that while a part of me will always be focused on my child there is another part of me that has focused much more on my job duties than I ever used to. I have completed more projects successfully in the past 6-7mo since getting back from my leave than I did in all of last year!

Is there such a place to work where there is little to no favoritism, you're paid what your worth, and you are valued for your capabilities and gifts at what you do, rather than only hearing negatives from management? If so, I want an application!


BeckahC

 

[CajunCenturion]

Please BechahC, if you find such a place, send me an application too.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[MattReed]

RosieB, make a good point. The only difference between a broken leg and child-rearing is that the broken leg doesn't ask for quarters for the arcade.

If you think about it, your comment about "commercial transaction" actually disproves your own point. If it was just a commercial transaction, your relationship with the company would be terminated as soon as you failed to meet their expectations.

It is rather ironic that the same people who expect their employer to shower them with thanks for their years of service are the first to go back to cold business logic when faced with the notion that they should thank someone else for their contributions.

 

[BeckahC]

I guess I am an odd one then.... I expect thanks and give it when due, too. To me, that's just the way I was raised. The polite and human thing to do. If someone helps you with something, you say "thank you" if someone does a good job, you tell them so. I act that way towards others, I suppose I just expect the same respect in return. I don't ask for a raise everytime I complete a project. I don't ask for a parade, or a company-wide announcement of thanks.... just a brief "good job" or "thanks for all your effort" would be plenty. I work at my best when I am encouraged and given positive feedback about what I am doing. I like to feel good about myself and my work and like what I am doing has made a positive difference or impact for someone else. Is that strange?

Maybe I am just still young enough to expect the best from people and haven't been tainted yet by the skepticism and negativity that seems to be all around me at work? Who knows. I wish I didn't have to lose that part of myself to survive in the workplace.

BeckahC

 

[rosieb]

MattReed
My point simply was that most commercial organisations do not act like charities, if they employ someone they expect value for money, hence gratitude for employment is inappropriate.

In my experience, when employed by a commercial organisation, you get a contract which specifies, duties & hours of work and the salary to be paid for that work. Every company I have ever worked for has expected me to be flexible in my work - trans to work longer hours, weekends, take on extra responsibilities - for no extra money. I've never found this a problem, as I understand that the business environment requires flexibility.

In return, I feel that if my circumstances change, the company has a similar moral obligation to offer me flexible working arrangements to continue to do my job ie fulfil my part of the contract. If I break my leg and cannot drive to work, and my work can be done from home, it seems reasonable that I should be allowed to do so.

I don't think that mothers of young children expect charity, which I interpret from your comment ask for quarters for the arcade (or is this a transatlantic misinterpretation?)

I also believe, supported by experience, that mothers of young children often make much more reliable and committed employees; they don’t, for example, throw sickies after a night out clubbing etc.

Motherhood does not preclude someone from doing her job well, it may mean she needs to do it slightly differently. No reasonable employer should find that a problem.

Rosie

 

[BeckahC]

"In return, I feel that if my circumstances change, the company has a similar moral obligation to offer me flexible working arrangements to continue to do my job ie fulfil my part of the contract. If I break my leg and cannot drive to work, and my work can be done from home, it seems reasonable that I should be allowed to do so."


Very well said Rosie!

Some employers consider it a 1-way street, you give all you can and when you need to take, they throw a fit and try to find someone else who might continue the 1-way giving.

Perhaps I would make a lousy manager, but I would be more concerned with - is the work getting done properly, well and on-time? Are the users satisfied? Are the costs approx the same? If yes to all, then all is well.

They used to be like that here until our "rule by fear" VP started here and changed everything right from under us. The important thing used to be to get it done fast and right and please the users/customers. Now it's get all the documentation done, then have several meetings to determine how fast it can be done and how to do it correctly, then have status update meetings weekly... Takes a month or more to do an hour's work at times. Then we get blamed for the "time lag" if the project is not in when the users asked for it to be originally. I started reminding the users what they needed to get in to me and when in order to hasten the process, the management's view is "if they want it done bad enough, they'll get us all that we need without us asking them for it" UGH!

BeckahC

 

[Palynth]

If I am off in saying this than please let me know. I read a little more than half way down these posts when I came across a post about how there are 3 types of men in the world. I believe that you are right on the money, but on the other hand there are the exact same type of women out there. Don't say that because your boss or manager is a man that he won't understand. There are others out there that are not men and have the exact same thought processes as Beckahc's manager does.

 

[rosieb]

Palynth
Over-generalisation. Guilty as charged!

I do think that when it comes to female managers, it actually gets more complicated. There are also some who feel the need to be tougher on female colleagues with childcare issues, just to show they aren't soft on "female" issues. Others, take the view that because they had a hard time making it, others should suffer equally. So the thought processes are not necessarily always the same.

There are vast numbers of variant approaches by both genders, I wasn't specifically intending to have a go at male managers. I've worked for good and bad managers of both genders.

In my view its it the difference between "good vs bad" rather than "male vs female" that defines the manager.

Rosie

 

[Onyxpurr]

Man or woman, gender does not matter. It's simply a person by person basis. I've worked for some men that are completely understanding and women that are nto and vice-versa. It's not a gender issue. However I do believe that personal experience comes into the mix. I had two male bosses one time while my father was sick and in intensive care. One boss remembered and cared, one boss did not. Why the difference? I don't know...one was just an a$$----. He wanted the full 40 hours regardless if my dad was dying or not, so that's what I gave him. But I stopped giving him free OT too. He wanted to play by the rules...fine.

Me personally...I don't care how much time or when you take time off, kids or no kids, as long as the work gets done. However there is a difference between a broken leg and a kid, you can take the broken leg with you, may be able to work with it, and it will mend eventually.

May I also mention too that while although I believe in a woman's right to choose to have kids and a career, both can not be had successfully. Something's gotta give, unless you have a husband who's willing to stay at home. I'm not happy with this idea, but I'll leave it out there.

 

[wbg34]

May I also mention too that while although I believe in a woman's right to choose to have kids and a career, both can not be had successfully. Something's gotta give, unless you have a husband who's willing to stay at home. I'm not happy with this idea, but I'll leave it out there.
Uggh I'm cringing over this one because I think it represents some of the bias out there. Why should this just affect the Mother? Shouldn't this be a couples choice (when applicble) with the father taking on just as much of the responsibility as the mother? I know I would feel like a hippocrit if I asked my wife to always stay home with the children or to be the go to person with them. Because our children are integral pieces of our lives we share the responsibility. We alternate sick children time off from work, we both take time to go to school conferences, and we alternate doctors visits. It shouldn't just be the mothers burden or responsibility.
I also disagree about something having to give. It should always be a give and take situation. While I expect to have points taken away at reviews for the missed days. I also expect to be given points for the nights that I'm up late dialed into the server or the weekends that I spend at work to make sure that my work doesn't suffer from my being a good parent.
I personaly would want employees that not only cared enough to take care of their kids, but also spent extra time to make sure that my company didn't lose out because they were good parents.

 

[Palynth]

Beckahc,

Could we have an update on your situation? Now that you got me hooked I would like to know. I am not a mother but I am a father and I have had to take my share of time off for earaches and fevers. I guess I am just saying, how are you doing?

 

[Onyxpurr]

Well I don't have any kids just yet, but have seen this in my home life. I go to school, work (both full-time) and married. My husband always said "something's gotta give" and I always said "no it doesn't, I just need to plan better" but I have yet to find a combo that works.

Perhaps I am assuming too much, but is there a parent here who doesn't regret working while their kid is growing up with the nanny or daycare? A parent that doesn't hate the fact that the caregiver heard the first words, and not them?

It's just me personally, I thought I could have it all, but I'm realizing that it's not possible. Choices have to be made.

 

[Palynth]

I now understand what you meant by both cannot be had successfully. I completely understand what you mean by that. I am a father and work full time while my son is in daycare. He keeps coming home with something he learned or a new game. That is great except I am not there to see it for the first time.
Like I said before I totally agree with the above statement when you mean it like that.

 

[SQLSister]

ONyxpurr, if you are planning to have chilren and this is an issue for you, you should try to learn to live on one income now and save yours. I know many people who say they can;t afford to stop working and would rather stay home with their kids who have 2 30K plus vehicles and a 600K+ house. Learn to live on less and you will have time to spend with your chilren. But it needs to be planned for before you have them and a big pile of debt all at once. My brother saved his wife's entire income until they had chilren and she got to stay home with the kids until they were in school and they did it on a West Virginia teacher's salary. But it had to be planned and they had to recognize that they weren't going to have fancy stuff.

 

[Onyxpurr]

SQLSister,

Yes but that in itself is a choice. I love my career and my job. Part of the reason why I got into programming was for the opportunity to work from home when we do have kids. However I can't have both, be successful at work and stay at home with the kids. We've also thought of my husband staying at home, but then he'd be sacrificing his career as well.

(Honestly I don't know if I could stay at home 24/7 with kids without going gaga and yearning to work, and vice-versa. I wish I could successfully do both, but I think I'd just be cheating either one of the two if I tried. I even thought about the possibility of teaching nights and hubby days, but then I'd be cheating my marriage.)

Sidenote: I hope I'm not giving the impression that I think anyone is a bad parent if they're working. That was not my intention.