Unfair treatment to those with children in IT? 8

[BeckahC]

I am just wondering if this seems to happen to anyone else out there. I used to be considered an excellent programer, got excellent reviews and raises yearly. I had a baby earlier this year and now all of a sudden I am doing the same work (if not more) and being berated, given poor reviews and no raise this year at all!

I would not have considered that this was because of my new family status if my boss had not said that it seemed to him that I am thinking more of my family than of work! Which is true, but still ridiculous to note! I still do all of my work well and on time and all of the users of my programs are totally satisfied, as always... the only thing that has seemed to change is my boss's attitude towards me. The real kicker is that he seems to be doing the same thing to another woman in the group who had her baby a couple of months before me.

I am thinking this might be illegal, but am afraid to comment on it or I might get fired or "laid off" and I really need the benefits from this position, even though the pay is barely enough to cover childcare!

Any ideas, suggetions, kindred spirits out there?

BeckahC

 

[wbg34]

Beckah,
Well it sounds like you are in a difficult spot. I have been fortunate with my past and current employers in their understanding of my needs as a very involved single & later married father. I have three children and have been commited to making sure they have the best that I can give them. This has included days and time off for doctor visits, school meetings, and two extended hospital stays.
When my youngest son was born he was kept in the hospital for three months and work allowed me to have all the time I needed to be at his side for the first three weeks and then whatever time I needed to attend weekly meetings with specialists. Later that same year I donated a Kidney to a cousin and again work was excellent in how they treated me about the time that I needed. They even advanced me a weeks worth of vacation so that I could take the two weeks that I needed off with full pay.
It all depends on the Boss. While my boss had no problems with this because he felt that all of it was very important, there were others in management who openly complained about the leeway that was given to me. My boss explained that I had taken the necessary precautions for my time away to have little to no impact on the company. I constantly had a cell phone and it was used on a number of occasions to help out at work. I also came in almost every weekend to complete critical work that couldn't wait. This seemed to satisfy my bosses concerns that I wasn't trying to take advantage of him.
My boss knows that if my kids need me then they will take precedence, but at the same time He also knows that I will not leave the company in a lurch.
Unfortunately this understanding has not been problem free. My personal reputation at work has taken hits because of my choices. Apparently if you work in IT no one notices that you are working unless something is broken. My annual reviews have taken hits because Sick time used is a factor in the overall rating. Overall that doesn't bother me because I feel that I'm doing the right thing.
I'm thankful that I have a boss that allows that choice to be as pleasant as possible. I'm sorry that you don't.
The only advice that I can give you is to make sure you take every opportunity that you can to remind your boss of the precautions that you do take so that your company isn't suffering from you being a good mother.

 

[BeckahC]

Excellent ideas! I am going to keep track of all I do and when it comes time in Jan for my next review I will bring in the paperwork showing all. I have been speaking with my users about putting in good words for me, and they all seem not only empathetic, but they are more than happy to try to help out however they can, including putting "plug" in for me with my boss whenever they can. If I get poorly or moderately rated in Jan. I will contest it, and have proof!

wbg34 -
I just have to say that you sound like a fantastic Daddy, and that you are extremely lucky that you work for such a great boss!

BeckahC

 

[KornGeek]

It's always nice to encourage customers to write letters saying how pleased they are with the project. Not only does this provide written proof that you can use in a review, but you can also put a copy on your cubicle wall to give your ego a boost when you're having a bad day. At my company, HR keeps a copy of each of these letters in the employees' personnel files, and marketing sometimes will contact the customers to see about quoting them on our website. It's good for everybody, and the customers generally don't mind.

As far as why fathers often aren't more active, I believe that this is partially because in our society, this stereotype is very active. Boys tend to grow up thinking that the mothers are the child-rearers, and so when they grow up and become fathers, they continue this belief. As far as myself, I am less active in the upbringing of my children than I would like to be. My wife is a stay-at-home mother, so I am the sole source of income. Consequently, I often need to go a little farther and work extra hours to help keep my job safe. I attend parent/teacher conferences and other important school events (and get the same response as sleipnir214), but I miss out on the less important but more fun events (such as my son's field trip to the pumpkin patch today). Sometimes, in order to do what you need to do for your family, you miss out on the things you want to do with them.

 

[BeckahC]

"Sometimes, in order to do what you need to do for your family, you miss out on the things you want to do with them."
Oh, I agree. I am a mommy, but because I work and my daughter is in daycare I feel I miss so much - like the first steps she took on her own was there, without me or her daddy there. It can be depressing... but I know that working is necessary to make sure she has all that she needs, like food, a roof over her head, etc...

I agree that there still seems to be a stereotype out there. I, for one, enjoy seeing when dads come to pick up or drop off their kids at daycare before or after work, and when they come to Parent meetings and such.

I grew up in a house where my mom was a stay-at-home mom and my dad worked all hours of the day and night and many parts of the year I rarely saw him. I feel I missed out on that relationship and I would hope that as our daughter grows, my husband continues to take as active a role as possible in her upbringing and her life.

I think that employers who encourage more family involvement might really see an improvement in overall job performance... a happy mom/dad is a happy employee, is a productive employee. People who are sour about missing out on time with their kids might well become less productive over time because they are unhappy in general... but that's just my opinion on it...

Oh, the clients who use my software and programs are internal to the company.. so I am not sure it would carry quite that kind of weight... but it couldn't hurt!

BeckahC

 

[KornGeek]

I can relate to the missing out on first steps. With my first son, I was frequently upset when I'd get home and hear "Guess what he did today!" simply because I was missing so many firsts. With my other children, I'm still disappointed, but I've learned to somewhat expect it.

I've been coming in to work a little later (about 10-15 minutes) lately because I've been walking my son to Kindergarten in the mornings. This little bit of time allows me to work a little later (30 minutes - 1 hour) without feeling like I'm missing out so much. Being flexible can result in dramatic productivity increases.

By the way, anybody who thinks that stay-at-home mothers aren't working (and I doubt anybody in this forum truly believes that) should try doing the job for just one week. It's high stress (especially with a 2-3 year-old), low (read no) pay, and you get far less appreciation for your efforts than even IT people get.

 

[BeckahC]

"By the way, anybody who thinks that stay-at-home mothers aren't working (and I doubt anybody in this forum truly believes that) should try doing the job for just one week. It's high stress (especially with a 2-3 year-old), low (read no) pay, and you get far less appreciation for your efforts than even IT people get."

And no benefits either - which is why I work - Medical and Dental!

I remember going absolutely stir crazy while on Maternity leave... I have since gotten a handle on things and would love to stay home, but the $$ and benefits just are not there.

I recently had my hours changed to 8:30-4:30 so I could have more time to spend with my daughter before bedtime... My boss thought I should be thinking more of how my hours would affect the company than how they affect me... I generally think the 2 are linked - If I am happier I know the quality and quantity of my work is much better than if I am not. I actually had to tell him that I feared for our saftey in the parking lot at the daycare after dark and a half hour would make the difference. It is a concern... but not my primary one.

BeckahC

 

[rosieb]

BeckahC

I think that when it comes to motherhood, there are 3 main kinds of men:

Those who just “get it”, usually ones who have younger siblings.

Those who don’t really understand, until they become fathers, then become besotted by their own kids, and suddenly catch on.

Those who never “get it”, despite having children of their own.

Sounds like your boss is the third kind. Also, if his wife stayed at home while his kids were young he’s probably got into the mindsets of:
good mother=at home, mother=can’t cope with work

Therefore, no matter how good you are at work you are still a mother, therefore, you can’t cope. Any time off just proves his point. You cannot win.

I may have missed it, but do you have an HR Dept you can ask for advice? If not, it sounds as though you’ve been with the company for some time, maybe you can just sit him out – hope he’ll move on.

On a horribly practical note, when managing staff, I’ve always found mothers extremely reliable. OK, they sometimes need time off for a sick child, but if you analyse absence, they generally take less time off than the average employee, and they usually feel obliged to overcompensate through guilt. End result: greater output, but still guilt, so even more effort.

I have always expected staff (male or female) to put family before work – if they don’t, I really worry. Any employer (or manager) who doesn’t understand work-life balance is not worth working for.

 

[BeckahC]

rosieb -
Very well said!

I think you are right about the type of person he is. I do have an HR Dept here.... but I fear that going to them might stir up a can of worms so to speak. The atmosphere here has slowly over the years gone from friendly teams to political battles. I fear that even if he wouldn't have legal grounds to fire me, he would find another way to lay me off instead and I would still be up the creek without Medical or Dental.

I happen to agree with you. The women I know who work and have families do seem, to me anyway, to be much more reliable when it comes to getting things done and not "griping" about this or that. As a mom I can tell you I come to work in all weather, in all stages of sickness (unless I can't get out of bed I feel so lousy) and ask for little to no time off for anything personal short of when my daughter is sick or needs to go to the doctors. I do know of some non-moms that do similarly, but honestly, not too many around here!

On a definite up-side, an old friend whom the same boss laid off a few months ago called me yesterday - she'd gotten word of my horrible review and wanted to offer encouragement, and carrer/job hunting advice - we are going to get together soon and she is going to help me with my resume and give me a good idea of what job applicants are wearing these days

I just feel it's time to move on to better places and things, where hopefully I can be acknowleged for the good work I do and still allowed to be a wife and mommy! Perhaps some company might even be willing to pay me closer to what I am worth!;-)

BeckahC

 

[CajunCenturion]

I do not understand why it's not the opposite. Everyone knows that kids are far better than adults with respect to computers, so I would think that people with kids would be revered in IT. They have another resource at their disposal.


No offense intended, this is a very real and serious issue being discussed and I in no way intend to make light of it - just some comic releif.


Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[BeckahC]

No offense taken - but you're right, I would venture a guess that by the time she is 3 years old, my daughter will likely know about the same, maybe more about PCs than some of the people I work with;-)

BeckahC

 

[willir]

BeckahC

Man does this topic hit close to home.

My wife died of cancer leaving me as a single with two very little kids to look after. (My mother died 6 months later, and the compnay I was working for went belly up 6 months after that -- not exactly a banner year -- some would say "charcter building".)

My next job after this low point was a one-person job as network administrator in a 24x7 production environment. When I went for the job interviews, I purposely did not mention I was a single parent, and I made it a point never to use my kids to get away from work except for extremely important reasons.

The real tough thing was when I would be paged at nights that required on-site support, or had to work the weekend to implement an upgrade. Tough for anybody, but it was absolute murder as a single parent.

Although I could easly justify the absences, business needs to get the work done. If the work does not get done, the business pays the penalty. Sure, I would win the argument about time off for this or that, but I suspect I would loose the war.

The outcome of this was I earned respect. Respect from management, the people I supported and the community (I did a fair amount volunteer work also).

How did I do this?
- A strong network of friends and support
- A fantastic at (her) home daycare provider (Homecare is more tolerable about looking after sick kids)
- Flex time was a savior
- A night time baby sitter who lived across the street
- Pre-emptive - implemented systems to reduce future problems
- Very strong organizational skills
- Prioritized -- kids first, job second, me last


What did it cost me?
- No promotion, but not because of my work or missed time; rather, I turned down several opportunities for advancement because they would have involved moving, and I wanted to raise my kids in a smaller town / city which I feel instills better values.
- A very tired Dad


The last three points...
- Enjoy your kids; they are your priority. Parenthood is a two-way street. Your kids are totally dependent on you as caregiver, and educator. I am convinced that good parenting better prepares kids as adults. On the other side of the street, the rewards -- parents all know the value of the first smile, the first step, first day at school, and the dozens of "I love you" you hear each and every day (even the reluctant teenager!).

- Kids grow up (all to quickly), and all too soon, they will be old enough to look after themselves.

- Your kids should learn the value of work and quality through your examples.


For those who do not understand kids, and the task of parenthood...
Yes, their comments and apparent contempt may be hurtful (I had a few of these - real jerks; worst of the bunch were two women, one who would probably never get married and never have kids; and a manager who was so self centered, it was sad) Pity those who do not value children. When our life draws to an end, our lives will have been enriched by the privledge of parenthood. Theirs will be empty.

(And I hope this is not hurtful to anyone, especially those who want but can not have kids.)

I realize this may be a different perspective on work and raising kids. But hey, we each have to deal with what life deals us; and this is how I survived.

I wish you the best of luck.

p.s.
Society and men as care givers is for another forum. However, I will say it took a lot of work for me to learn nuturing skills. Without trying to be sexist, I feel that many women are better adapted at nuturing than men. Porbably goes back to the caveman era with the hunters and nuturers. I guess most of us can learn most skills, but some people learn some skills better than others. And then us guys lack some of the equipment for breast feeding, and us guys will never know the joy as the oxytocin hormones shoot through the body. I remember my wife saying it was a tremendous feeling, a real high, and I personally feel this "bonding" really helps one further develop nuturing skills.

Go to go, my younger son is having a nightmare as I type...

 

[KornGeek]

willir,
I'm sorry to hear about the unfortunate (to say the least) series of events you experienced, but I'm glad to hear that you have found a balance. One thing concerns me, though. You mention putting yourself last. This is not always a good thing.

My wife loves to watch Dr. Phil, and many times I have heard him explain that "You love your kids, and they need their father. If you love them so much, why wouldn't you be willing to take care of their father." (or something along those lines.) Remember, on airlines when the oxygen masks drop, you're supposed to put yours on before helping someone else. It's good to value and take care of your children, but make sure you take care of your needs as well.

CajunCenturion,
Thanks for your light-hearted post. It actually scares me sometimes how much kids these days already know about computers. But then I think that these kids will be taking care of me someday, and I'll want them to troubleshoot my video games, so it's a good thing. ;-)

 

[rosieb]

willir
You've gone through a really tough time, but you've clearly got your priorities right.

BeckahC
I suspect your daughter already knows more about PCs than many of my users.

However, in the light hearted vein, we can still stay ahead,....My proudest moment: my 21 year-old nephew came to visit for a couple of hours, for his aunt to show him a few things to do with his dissertation (mainly formatting) stayed 3 days - I am apparently "cool". What better compliment can you get?

 

[BeckahC]

Wow!
Sorry for the delay in response - I was home all last week with a sick baby! :-( She's better now. I have to say that almost everyday my husband came home and asked if I still had a job... So far, so good.... but lately, I pray to be laid off!!!!

Willir - I am so sorry for all that yo uhave been through! I admire that you have been able to find that balance between work, kids and yourself. I, too, place myself last in the priorities list... seems necessary when you are a parent, especially when you are the primary parent your child or children depend on.

Korngeek - the reason for putting the mask on yourself first is so that you can be better focused on saving your child's/childrens' or companion's lives.

Rosieb - Very cool! ;-) I think my daughter could probably do better than some programmers I work with at this point!

In the mean time - my resume has been dusted off and is waiting to go out to many new places!

BeckahC

 

[butchrecon]

Good thread. For me, family first, job second. Jobs come and go, but family is forever. I have a lot of respect for single parents, espcially single dads. It is tough for a man to be a single parent in todays world. I actually heard someone tell a friend of mine who is a single dad, "Go get married so you can have someone raise your kids". That was not cool.

Good luck to all of you who have issues with employers and children.

James Collins
Help Desk Analyst
A+, MCP, MCSA, Network+

 

[NiteLink]

In the ideal world:

1. Employees, management alike are allowed and sympathised that they have to take time off to look after sick children.

2. When an employee puts in too much time at work including weeekends, they are either too work commited or they have no social life or their family life just, erm, sucks.

3. When a pregnant woman has to take time off for visits to the doctor, the manager just take it as normal. Unfortunately, to the managemen at my place, they say she's not commited or not serious about her work. Duh! She has to visit the doctor as her age is quite "dangerous" for having a baby now.

4. When an employee is allowed to visit the doctor during office hours, and they don't have an Medical Leave after the visit (due to HR control), it means that the employee is already ill enough to get some medicine. The management should not take it that they are making use of the chance to relax.

Unfortunately, that's not the case at my place. I really wonder, have the management here gone heartleass?

Fight?

What fight?

 

[BeckahC]

I think they might have... In my case they were all kind and easy-going to me while I was pregnant... then I got back from my leave, and once it became apparant to my boss that I would no longer put work above my family, that's when things started getting "ugly" for me.


The thing that gets me is that I turned down a big position in the city last year that would have paid twice as much as I get here with comparable benefits because I felt I was working at a more family oriented company which would be more willing to work with me as far as time off goes... silly me... I guess I was seeing the place through rose colored glasses or something :-(

BeckahC

 

[MattReed]

Management should not be forced to conform to changes in your personal life. I'm sorry that I have to disagree with THE REST OF THE WORLD, but I don't think they should have to. You did not have a child when they hired you. You admint that you are not meeting some of the requirements that your boss has set for you. You also note that you have to "work from home" some days. I think that your boss has every right to give reviews that are "less favorable" than the ones he gave you prior to the baby. Your performance has changed.

I wish you and your child the best, but I have to side with your boss in this situation.

I hope that everything works out for you. It always seems to.

 

[BeckahC]

That's an interesting view of things...

The issue for me is the unfair treatment - the way he treats moms differently from non-moms. For instance, non-moms can work from home as needed, as company policy allows. Moms cannot because if they are home, they must be spending most of their time with their family, so they must not be working (even if the results of the work or the work itself is well-known and out there for him to see). Also, being on a job that has you on-call 24/7 and then not being allowed personal time when needed... that does not sit well with me either.

I have actully seen him tell another mom on my team that she had to change her vacation plans for something that was planned by him, but turn around and change his plans when someone else on the team tells him they will be out that day!

If he were in fact treating all of us the same or even similarly - ie: others with a similar attendance record getting reviewed as I did, and there are people who are out much more often than I am - I would not have a problem with it affecting my review. Since that is not the case, and he does show favor to some people over others, I feel that he's in the wrong.

*That review, BTW, was the very 1st time I had heard anything negative about my performance from anyone about my job. He had most of the year to let me know there were things he wanted me to improve or that he had a problem with, he chose instead to blind-side me... which is not how the company policies are set up here. Everything was "great" "terrific" "excellent" or "perfect" until that day.. but since then he seems to have it in for me, big time! Our company has a system where someone can be "written up" for poor performance... my record is clean, no complaints, only praise.

Bottom line: I used to enjoy my job and working where I do and for whom I do. I now hate it and my job performance probably has or will begin to suffer. I don't ever take it out on the users, but I sure as he!! do not jump through hoops to impress a boss I cannot respect and who has no respect for me.



BeckahC

 

[rosieb]

BeckahC

I was always taught that nothing at a review should come as a surprise. Issues about someone's performance should always be raised at the time. A review should be just that, a time to bring together matters already raised individually and to look at patterns.

Any criticisms raised should be specific, with concrete examples.

I don't know how your review system works, but in most, there is the opportunity to challenge a manager's comments. I realise you may not feel this is politically expedient, but if there are a number of people with the same experience of this person's bias, it might be worth seeing if you can take it up as a group (or if you all appeal individually, someone will surely see a pattern).

I'm not in agreement with MattReed, OK your circumstances have changed, you may need to do your job differently, but you still seem to be achieving the objectives set for you. (From a UK perspective, you would have a real case for claiming discrimination!!)

I have a nasty feeling you may just have to put up with the unfairness (unless you can find a more enlightened employer) but I hope not. The important thing is not to allow your boss to undermine your confidence in your own abilities.

I hope things work out.

Rosie