To MSCE or not To MCSE 1

[SGTRawlins]

Hi Ladies & Gents,

Just a quick one for you. My company has offered to pay for me to become MCSE certfied. At face value this seems to be an intresting proposal but i have a few worries.

My conmpany Currently pays me peanuts! They have said that once qualified they will be able to justify spending more money on me.

If i complete the training and they still fall short of what i can earn else where it will be difficult for me to change job as my employment contract states i must re-imburse the company for all traning they have supplied me if i leave within 3-years of becoming certified!

I have been thinking of changing jobs as this one doesnt pay enough! what the best move, Leave now and find another better paid job and loose the training, or become trained and run the risk of being ripped of again?

All opinions valued!

 

[jrbarnett]

Have they quantified what improvements in salary or other benefits you will get once certified? If not, ask them then check out the job ads in your area for skills/qualifications and see how it stacks up.
Also compare current job status against competitors and see if the MCSE is worth it this way, plus the cost of studying for MCSE and the time it would take if you were to do it on your own.

John

 

[kcongdon]

Take training whenever it's offered. Get trained up, certified, and skilled. Then try to find a new employer who will pay your old employer for your training.

The company I work for pays to train some people, but won't pay to train others. The ones who get trained have no contractual obligation to stay, so they leave. It's the silliest waste of money I've ever seen in 15 years of work.

A+, MCSE-NT4 (on my own time and money)

 

[screwloose]

No employer is going to pay a new employee’s former company for a debt owed to that former company; unless the candidate has exceptional skills that cannot be found in another employee, which is unlikely.

Three years is a long time to be indebted to a company for repayment of training. I would never work for an employer who states that I should reimburse the company if I leave the company in so many years.

I knew a guy once at a company I worked for who went to company-paid training in Montreal (USA-based) and called his manager from his hotel room in Montreal to give his two-week notice. Needless to say, when the manager listened to the voice mail the employee was told to get back immediately and was summarily dismissed. This is wrong. If however, you think it will be six months before you leave, then I would say it is acceptable to take the training.

Look at it mathematically; if the training costs $5000 and you have to pay back the cost if you leave within 3 years, that is approx. $1650/year. If you get another job that pays $1000/yr. more, you will be left with a debt to your old company, however, if your new job would pay $3000/yr. more, then you are ahead $4000. Assuming the money would not have to be paid in a lump sum, and also considering it is a valid contract that could be enforced.

This did not “give” you an answer, but rather some things to consider and then for you to decide what is best for you.

 

[Kjonnnn]

If you're working in IT, can you study on the side and get Certified yourself if that is what you want.

My thinking is that if you're already working in IT, you wont necessary need to take the expensive hands on classes and can get certified for waay less than $5000.

 

[screwloose]

They are purely revenue generator’s for a company.

Consider for $5000 you could go to a public university and take 15 hours@$150/hr = $2250. Through in books, fees, etc., you could almost get a 1 year education at an accredited school.

And to think that some spend thousands on multiple certifications, but have no college(?).

It confounds me completely. What if you decide in 10 years that you no longer want to work in IT, but you would rather be a market research analyst? You will never even get a second glance. Your 6 certs at a cost of $12,000 doesn’t mean anything. It requires a college education. Most people not only change jobs multiple times in their lives, but they also change careers.

Think long-range. Think of the future.

 

[jtb]

screwloose is exactly right..

sit down with someone you can trust (boss, spouse, parents, etc.) and start a career plan.

Figure out what good have or not having certs will do you.

Also figure out what good having your boss pay versus you pay for the MCSE will do you.

Then when you can see your future, you can be your future...

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[Stevehewitt]

The real question is would you train for MCSE anyway? If you would look into it and your interested, then take the opporunity. There is nothing to loose other than 2 years of working for a company that you don't like the pay for.

MCSE compared to MCP or degree generally pays a lot more from the ad's i've seen in the UK. MCP Network Admin job about £25 - £30k, where MCSE £45 - £60k.

Don't let a short term money issue put you off. Think of it as an investement, where you can't loose anything more than 2 years of working for a company that doesn't pay you enough.

You'll have the last laugh.

Good Luck,

Steve.

 

[SGTRawlins]

OK thanks for the advice guys, here is an intresting twist, yesterday i was offered a job.

They are not willing to invest in an MSCE training plan however the sallary is more than double that of my current job + there are lots of nice benifits such as company cars etc.

What do you think will be the best move now?

 

[jrbarnett]

I would take the new job. If the MCSE still interests you, spend some of the salary from the new job on the training and exams.

John

 

[Stella740pl]

I would definitely take a better job over a training (especially offered with a 3-year (!) stay clause) any time. Your current company is not going to double your salary after you get certified, and I don't think that this training is worth 3 times your current salary.

As jrbarnett said, "if the MCSE still interests you, spend some of the salary from the new job on the training and exams", just don't rush into it. Take a look around, at your new responsibilities, at what others are doing and what kind of education/certification they have. It's possible that you will decide to get a different kind of training, or maybe pursue a degree if you don't have one. Also find out in your new company whether their benefit package include reimbursement for the college tuition in whole or in part. It shouldn't be a main reason for accepting or declining the job, but you may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[screwloose]

I personally believe certification programs to be a waste of time and money. Recently, I saw a post on AIX which was a very basic question (I don’t recall the exact question, but remember thinking “easy”) and the person asking the question listed after their name “IBM eServer Certified Specialist – AIX System Support”. Further, this individual listed that they had 6 months on AIX.

To me this shows the “value” of certifications. Almost anybody can get one through cramming, etc. It is the same as students who read Cliff’s Notes instead of the entire book. Certificates also have no accreditation agency, which would denote an educational value. Are the curriculum developers or course designers for these programs qualified to construct tests? Are the instructors qualified to teach? These are all relevant questions to ask before spending money to add to a company’s revenue. I realize the context is to show that you have the knowledge to say, configure a Cisco router, because you got their CCNE; but it can be learned by cramming and no experience, etc. Some will say that a SANS security certificate requires a paper, however, some of these papers are 6 or 7 pages with margins, pics, and other material which takes away from the hypothesis. So in all practicality, the paper is worthless and not worth the time spent.

Why spend thousands on certifications when you can spend the money on a real education, I ask?

To answer your question – only you can decide if the new job is what you want. If you think you will learn more and like a change, then the extra money and benefits will be pluses. If you are required to work 80-hour weeks then it wouldn’t be worth it (for me.)

Good Luck.

 

[Msharkey]

I think there are some added benefits with going to get a degree. The ability to netwrok with other professionals, get to a person (the instructor) that you ask those dumb questions to and have a piece of paper on the wall. It does add to a sense of completion.

I joined the IT works force after 15 years in another industry. I lucked into the job and have done very well with the chance provided. By going for the MSCE rating, I feel this is a chance to better myself and reward the company.

Matt

 

[idd]

With double what you're already on like JRBarnett said, you can spend some of that salary on an MCSE if it still interests you. I would say take the job bearing in mind the following.

job satisfaction is king, and money is not everything. So if the new job seems very good with all the frills of company cars and other benefits, but requires longer hours and the actual job is not that enjoyable then it might be worth thinking about declining it. If it still sounds good then dive in and good luck.

all the best in hatever you decide.

that is my Humble opinion.

Idd

 

[bdelaney]

I'm kind of in the same boat as SGT. and am piecemealing my way through the required courses on my own as that will allow me to go elsewhere without the limiations of re-imbursing the company. It may mean a little longer at your current spot, but if your able to do this, then I believe that is the way to go.

Life happens... it all depends on how you deal with it.

 

[GlenJohnson]

Take the job, use the extra money, set up a home network. Go to microsoft and buy the training manuals and work your way up to mcse. It's cheaper than classes, you learn a lot, and when put up against someone who has been to a brain dump, you'll put them to shame. Check out my faq
faq468-4224
about how to pass ms tests the first time. Good luck.

Glen A. Johnson
If you're from Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin feel free to join the Tek-Tips in Chicago, Illinois Forum.

TTinChicago
Johnson Computers

 

[Swi]

SGTRawlins,

3 years sounds a bit long but it is pretty normal now of days for an employer to make you sign some sort of contract on the day of your employment stating that you will need to spend some time with the company after they pay for any of your education. Basically they are making an investment and would like a return on that investment.

Swi

 

[SGTRawlins]

I am currently awaiting a formal proposal from the prospect employer, Once i recieve this all should be good and i will make the move, never have been much of an accedemic so the education doesnt really excite me atall.

Cheeers fo all the input guys.