The rise and rise of KAZAA peer 2 peer file sharing. 6

[guestgulkan]

I was to say the least , mildly surprised to see KAZAA media desktop software being given away on a freebie CDROM by a reputable PC magazine here in the UK.

AFAIK there is only one purpose behined KAZAA and that is p2p file sharing, also known as piracy.

As someone who also dabbles in computer repair, I would say at least 50% of the computers I see have the shiny green KAZAA shortcut on their desktop.

Yet I hear nothing from the record/media companies about this KAZAA network - but they went after NAPSTER with extreme malice.

 

[skiflyer]

I don't think it's quite as simple as you suggest, I've been through at least 4 ISP's over the last few years, and at times carried more than one. At the same time I don't think it's so difficult, the issue is really the industry choosing to go that way. Right now given what the profit margins on CD's are for the industry (not the artists, not the stores), they're staunchly against it. It's not the first time the record industry has been adverse to new technology, they tried to stop the making of recordable cassette tape machines as they thought everyone would just record their favorite music off the radio.

TV broadcasters are in a huff over this digital recorders right now because of the ability of some to skip commercials. And so on and so on. Problem is, technology tends to go on despite the best efforts of legislation.

i.e.
They want to watermark MP3's.

That's nice, and MP3's with those watermarks would be better protected, but what about the home made ones, we've already shown technology exists to make this type.

eh, they'll catch up eventually or they'll go under, and I don't see that industry going under anytime soon.

-Rob

 

[xutopia]

just wondering would everyone here pay 10c to 15c for each MP3 they'd get from Kazaa or other file sharing services? Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
==========================

 

[manarth]

I wouldn't necessarily pay to download through Kazaa / other peer2peer mechanism - I've had nothing but frustration from these programs!

I'd pay if it were through a stable reasonably quick & securely sourced site / server...
In fact - I second GuestGulkan's Video/Music server notion...nice idea!

I'm not too sure about "the ISP keeps track of what song we are entitled to" - I'm happy to accept responsibility for keeping my data safe...after all, if we lose a CD, the record store won't give us another one!

I think ISP tracking could slow the system down and provide unnecessary overheads - as long as the system ensures once you've paid you do get a reasonable chance to download the file (e.g. a 24hr window to download it as many times as you like - if your download crashes, you get a second chance!)

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[psemianonymous]

Something I hate is pirates trying to justify their stealing. Installing Kazaa Media Desktop on your machine guarantees that you will pirate something or other. It isn't used to transfer independent music. It isn't used to copy &quot;home videos&quot;--whatever that means. It is used to copy the latest popular singles in MP3 format at 128kbps quality. It is used to get the latest &quot;cammed&quot; movies in terrible quality. It is used to get all of your favorite television episodes. Also, as a note to watchful parents, p2p is used commonly for transferring pornography. Does your internet filter work on p2p? Nope.


I don't care that
-the (RI/MP)AA is evil
-Music is too expensive/is too crappy
-there is no good legal online alternative
-four thousand crappy independent artists use p2p as a distribution method for their awful music, thus it has a token non-illegal use
-Microsoft is evil
-the RIAA/MPAA are now using strongman tactics to get private user information of file traders, making them more evil

I don't care about any of that. If you are stealing, just say &quot;I downloaded that song last night and am not bothered by the fact that it is an illegal copy.&quot; That's all I want to hear.

But instead, I always hear &quot;I am not doing this for myself, I am doing this to save mankind itself; indeed, the future of the entire race may hinge on my exercising my right to free speech&quot; or some crap like that. Songs are apparently never downloaded for the sheer joy of music anymore. &quot;I just got the newest 50 Cent! Take THAT, Lars Ulrich of Metallica!&quot;

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[Tarwn]

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but just to comment on &quot;Installing Kazaa Media Desktop on your machine guarantees that you will pirate something or other&quot;

Heres a sample of why I installed the software and what I have to redistribute:
Game patches, because you try to download one of the popular ones the week it comes out from the official site...no bandwidth
Game demos, same reasoning as above
Part of my MP3 collection...amazingly it is the free portion, imagine that
Matrix screensaver, because it's getting harder and harder to find a download site for it (or it was when I was looking)
An interesting collection of funny commercials....um...cuz their funny

but thank you foolio2 for declaring my actions evil because some people misuse the software, I will cease to sleep at night with worry that I may be destroying the profits of artists everywhere by increasing the availaibility of sometimes hard to get, frelly redistributable software, patches, and my trance collection. I should never have installed the software because if other people use it in an illegal fashion than obviously I am guilty simply by association if I install it...



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[psemianonymous]

I didn't say they were evil--I said they were illegal.

Also, believe it or not, those TV commercials are copyrighted, therefore I still win--you're pirating.

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[cdogg]

LOL

Installing Kazaa Media Desktop on your machine guarantees that you will pirate something or other

Well, technically it is possible to install the software and not use it! So, perhaps you should rephrase your claim? Also, it is possible to install and use Kazaa for the items Tarwn mentioned except the commercials.

While the risk of obtaining illegal files is HIGH, it is not guaranteed in ALL cases...only pointing out the possibilities whether likely or not.
I think we see your point!



~cdogg

&quot;The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.&quot;
- A. Einstein

 

[ThomasJSmart]

first of all i dont use kazaa, i use kazaa lite, which is kazaa without all the spyware and bullshit.

the reson i use this program is as follows:

i am a hobbiest music producer, i make techno and other dance tunes. i live in holland. when i went to the local music stores, i wont mention any names, but i went to the 2 biggest stores in amsterdam and 1 smaller shop, they offered me 3,50 euro per cd for my cd's, they where then planning on selling these for 25 euros.

i thought i was maybe just me but i asked around and a few DJ's i met online where offered the same amount, somewhere along the line i find this a tiny bit unfair.

so now i am selling my cd's of mu own website for 10 euro's each. i have also placed about 25% of my music on the kazaa network for others to share. i still manage to sell about 250 of my cd's in the first month after i make a new cd. most of the ppl say they heard my stuff on the kazaa network and liked it so decided to buy a full cd.

i also download from kazaa, if i find tunes i like i find who the artist is and buy the cd of them instead of in the shop.

My conclusion:

kazaa (and other p2p's) will destroy kapitalistic record labels and profitering shops but, in combination with internet, it will make life hellofalot easier for the true artists!

of course this is only the music point of view, software and movies are the other big issues....

and kazaa is only one of many, anyone ever tried searching for p2p on download.com?? hehe

-thomas

I learned a bit yesterday, today i learned a lot, imagine what i'll learn tomorrow!

 

[psemianonymous]

Claims made on the internet don't mean too much to me. Even IF someone uses it 100% legally, I have yet to meet this wonder in person. I don't know anyone who uses Kazaa for strictly legal purposes.

We all hate sweeping statements, as we dorky tech people always are worrying at boundary conditions and error-checking. But using the Microsoft/80-80 principle, I can effectively guarantee this.

In fact, with Kazaa I can go far beyond 80/80 - I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't use Kazaa illegally. Internet testimonials aside--I could call this the &quot;99.99/99.99&quot; principle and get away with it. This is the same principle which is allowing the US court system to prosecute p2p companies, and I believe it's justified.

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[Tarwn]

I am willing to agree that the commercials are probably not entirely legel, but not in the way that was mentioned above. Now that I think about it I will have to remove them from my redist. folder.
It is not illegal to record commercials. It is not pirating to record commercials for the same reason it is not pirating to record the show that is encapsualting commercials. If this were true than VCRs would fall under headings of piracy. Instead it was upheld, in a court of law, that recording television for later playback is considered, and I quote, &quot;fair use&quot; and could not be considered piracy.
While I am then allowed to invite some friends over to watch this, the problem comes in with computers because my &quot;friends&quot; are making physical copies of the &quot;fair use&quot; recording from my copy. This is where it hits the legal gray area. There are groups attempting to get laws passed to make redistribution of television over the internet striuctly illegal and this does partially fall under copyright laws, but it would be theoretically possible to get permission to show these recordings to friends if I were willing to go to court in order to do so. The court system examines cases such as these on a case by case basis, and in the case of redistributing commercials I am willing to believe they would allow this on the grounds that
a) My redistribution is in fact helping the company who owns the commercial (not the broadcaster, the original company)
b) The material I am sharing is not technically offensive to other because they have a choice whether or not to download it (I say technically because there is always someone...)

Be it as it may, I do not have the aforementioned permission and therefore will rmove those files.

Also, I apologize for leaving out the sarcasm tags in my previous post, I had forgotten how necessary it is to blatently advertise the fact that I am going to attempt to make a point with a slightly sarcastic twist of phrase.

<sarcasm type=&quot;mostly obvious&quot;>
I will attempt to become a better person by learning the use of the Ctrl+C Ctrl+V keys a little better so as not to misquote someone despite a complete absence of quotation marks or other agreed upon techniques used to display direct quotations.
</sarcasm>

-Tarwn

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[rhinok]

K9logic says:[ul][li]kazaa (and other p2p's) will destroy kapitalistic record labels and profitering shops but, in combination with internet, it will make life hellofalot easier for the true artists![/li][/ul]and[ul][li]they offered me 3,50 euro per cd for my cd's, they where then planning on selling these for 25 euros.[/li][li]i find this a tiny bit unfair.

so now i am selling my cd's of mu own website for 10 euro's each. i have also placed about 25% of my music on the kazaa network for others to share. i still manage to sell about 250 of my cd's in the first month after i make a new cd. most of the ppl say they heard my stuff on the kazaa network and liked it so decided to buy a full cd.[/li][/ul]

So K9logic is a 'true' artist? Please, you're just another capitalist. If you believed your own 'true artist' hype, you'd give your music away.

 

[ThomasJSmart]

i cant give my music away because i have to pay to get the cd's made and the booklets printed and the computer/software i make the music with. i have about 2 euro's profit out of that 10 euro's. and all money i make goes into new software, keybords etc. i have never made money with my music and i never intend to. it is a hobby and that is what it should stay.

also this is offtopic

i was trying more to prove the point that i am a music artist and i am happy with kazaa because it gives me free advertising. and also because of kazaa i truely believe i am reaching more ppl than i would just going to a shop.

I learned a bit yesterday, today i learned a lot, imagine what i'll learn tomorrow!

 

[CajunCenturion]

Ok K9logic, is it ok with you, do I have your permission, so as not to violate any copyright, to download all of your songs that I can find on KAAZA, Morpheus, etc, for free so that I can add them to my music collection, and burn my own copy of a CD of your music?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[drdebit]

If you do that how does he get his 2 euros per song/cd towards equipment upkeep and replacement?

 

[CajunCenturion]

Exactly the point.

Unfortunately for the artist, they only get exposure, no money is changing hands.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[ThomasJSmart]

but i still make enuf money to be able to buy new equipment and software on a regular basis. So there are enuf ppl who like to support me after downloading from kazaa. obviously if no-one buys i get no money and i cant produce more. most ppl (that buy from me) tend to know this fact. I dont mind that there are plenty of ppl that download but never buy. Atleast they apreciate my music or thy wouldnt download would they

there are plenty of honist ppl still out there willing to pay for something they like

I learned a bit yesterday, today i learned a lot, imagine what i'll learn tomorrow!

 

[KornGeek]

Just to add my 2 cents-

I think that K9logic has a point about advertising. I used to use Napster once upon a time. About 30-40% of the things I downloaded were copyrighted and downloaded without permission of the owner of the copyright. (foolio12 should now be happy.) I only kept a small portion of these, and they generally led to CD purchases. If the RIAA had decided to use Napster as a medium similar to radio, they could have had a great tool for marketing their music. I will admit there are differences, but if the RIAA had been smart, they would have chosen a different direction. They are now regarded as &quot;evil&quot; and have lost a potential method of nearly free advertising.

CajunCenturion,
Driving a car is not illegal in the state of California. I think (hope and am basing my argument on the idea) that we can agree on this. However, driving without a license or driving a car that does not belong to you without the permission of the owner is illegal. This does not make driving illegal, it makes a small portion illegal.

This is similar to the discussion about file sharing. xutopia was not saying that all file sharing is legal, but rather that the general action of file sharing is legal and that it is only the specific actions of sharing certain files that becomes illegal. I think we all agree on the concept, and that it is only the wording that is being argued over.

xutopia, the part of your statement that I have a problem (minor though it may be) with is the &quot;in any country&quot; part. There are some countries that have very restrictive laws and file sharing may be illegal there.

 

[CajunCenturion]

KornGeek - I appreciate what you saying. I think my point was lost on most because by the basic rules of logic, for a statement to be true it must always be true.

The statement: &quot;Driving in California is legal&quot; (or as you stated, not illegal) is by definition a false statement because there are conditions in which driving is not legal, specifically by someone who does not have a valid driver's license. Put another way, the statement is only true when certain conditions are met.

Likewise, the statement: &quot;Driving in California is illegal&quot; is also a false statement because as we all know, there are many situations where driving is legal.

What makes these two statements false is that neither of them are true 100% of the time. That is basic logic. For a statement to be true it must always be true.

I think that this leads to misunderstandings when broad general statements are made, because there are exceptions. The very existance of the exceptions is what makes the statement false. It also is often the case, at least in my opinion, that it's in dealing with the exceptions that the most interesting discussions take place.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[KornGeek]

Unfortunately, when posting (especially if we get caught up in the emotion of the moment) we often neglect to follow the rules of logic very closely. For instance, when xutopia stated that &quot;file sharing is not illegal&quot;, (I believe) that was meant to say that &quot;file sharing is not illegal in and of itself&quot;. The meaning is (intended to be) the same, but the grammar is less formal. However, the unfortunate side effect is that the statement then becomes more ambiguous, leading to debates such as this.

The good news is that we agree on the concept, but just differ on the phrasing. Bottom line, file sharing in general is not illegal unless it is made illegal due to the files being shared or the unique laws of where you might be. (I hope that covers it, but I'm sure I'll be corrected if I missed something. ;-))

 

[SgtZim]

Ive got a couple things to add here.

1. Downloading most commercials is not illegal. As a matter of fact, there are several websites that do nothing other than host funny commercials for people to download. Some of them offset costs by advertising companies paying a small fee to them to highlight their commercials. Dont forget, most companies LOVE the fact that people the world over are seeking out their commercials on their own time at no cost to them for viewing. Id bet you would be very hard pressed to find any company that would balk at a commercial they spent tons of money to produce and air a few times being made available on the net for people to download. Free advertising = well, free advertising.

2. On the RIAA issue. The RIAA is attempting to make it so that even artists like K9Logic here cannot make thier music available for free on the internet legally at all. They have lobbied for broad sweeping legislation making ANY music downloading with or without the permission of the artist illegal. There are several big name artists out there that WANT to give some of their music away for free on the internet to drive interest, but the RIAA will not let them. Some big named artists are trying to make it so they can sell thier own music to download from their websites for a fair amount, again, the RIAA threatens them with lawsuits, etc. I just read a article written by Courtney Love you may find very informative:

http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/print.html

From what I gather MOST artists are getting screwed over by the RIAA so bad that if they even sold their music on the net for $3.00 to download a CD's worth they would be far better off. Courtney Love says in the above article that Napster and MP3's dont scare her at all considering that she is essentially working for nothing as it is with the big contract that she has with Time Warner. She says when its all said and done, she would have made more money working for 7-11 than being a famous artist (good one or not is up to personal taste).

Of course, none of this changes the current fact that downloading copyrited music is still illegal, but this does show that the artists themselves are by and large arent opposed to it. As a matter of fact, a good many would be much better off financially when its all said and done.

Zim