The gap of professional and unprofessional knowledge 13

[Jui]

Hello everyone,
As the technology moving so fast, and most of the people that could have the access of this technology advantages are professional people. The more access to this technology, means that professional people could gain more knowledge more easily than unprofessional people. Therefore the gap of knowledge between professional and unprofessional people become bigger. Is anyone has a similar thought?

 

[Jira]

Yes, I think so. The professional people can go through all around the technology or the internet much more easier than the unprofessional. By the way, the unknown people have to pay more interested in what they want to know.
Many people acknowledge things by give thier time with that things like if you want to understand a new software, you need to learn, notice or even practice its functions.
The gap between professional and unprofessional may be narrower. It depends on how much they interested in what they want to know.

cheers,
Jira

 

[Kspade]

One of the worst anooyances are when the unprofessionals try to act like professionals, then when they realy screw it up it is a serious emergency for the pofessionals to fix and it needed to be fixed 2 weeks ago. Gee such fun. I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.

 

[pivan]

This gap does exist. It always has. It is one of the major contributing reasons as to why we have such unequally distributed incomes. IMHO.

It could be that this is part of the natural selection of the species that Darwin was talking about.

An individual is going to have to work hard to gain access to information (remember, knowledge is power). In this paradigm thats what separates the professional from the unprofessional. Once he has access to this information he/she can ride it like a wave to newer and more lucrative adventures.

The internet has really contributed to reducing this gap in the countries whose infracstructure supports it (phone lines, electricity etc).

A good question would be, how do we get information, knowledge to the masses?

My answer would be that the means is there. Its up to individuals, regardless of which country they are from, to put in the time and effort to obtain it.

IMHO

Regards,
pivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[gunthnp]

oh the digital divid work and it gets smaller even if it given to you if you don't use it does never litlle good gunthnp
Have you ever woken up and realized you where not alive.

 

[Guest_imported]

I just wonder how you can classify who is professional and who is unprofessional. What is your criteria? If you find someone who is very well-educated and training. Will you determine that he/she is professional suddenly. From my experience, I found that someone is looked like professional and they are also confidence in themselves undtil they did not listen to any others' arguments. Do you think this is the way that professional do?

 

[iza]

"Once he has access to this information he/she can ride it like a wave to newer and more lucrative adventures." --> IF s/he is educated enough and have enough culture to filter it - i've seen many "professional" people working with me and having access to the info not beeing able to UNDERSTAND the **meaning** of this information
"how do we get information, knowledge to the masses?" --> i would say, education is the key. Learn people how to learn by themselves. Learn them how to filter and criticize infos. Learn them how to fully and always use their brain. Most "educated" people i know don't use their brains, they use reflexes they've been given
"how you can classify who is professional and who is unprofessional" --> before asking how to clasify i'd rather ask how to DEFINE - what does professional mean ?
"From my experience, I found that someone is looked like professional and they are also confidence in themselves undtil they did not listen to any others' arguments" --> so that's a professional ... consultant ;]]] - only the look is important and not the content !!!!! "looking profesional" is just nothing - best coders i know wear jeans baskets and a lousy crapy shirt ! - "confidence in themselves" - good, as long as they still think they CAN be wrong (a coder who thinks he does never ever make a mistake is a very stupid one !!!!!!) - "they did not listen to any others' arguments" --> ah ah NOT professional : if you don't listen to others how do you work ???

 

[MasterRacker]

Pivan hit the nail on the head. There is whole class of people who think they don't need the education/knowledge and therefore aren't willing to expend the effort to learn. The information is available. Refererence material has been available in libraries forever. Today every library worth a darn in any developeed country also has free access Internet terminals. The information is available to those who want to put in the time to learn it.

The group that doesn't want to learn is a group that you can't do anything with. You can't unscrew their skulls and pour knowledge in there for them.


Jeff

I haven't lost my mind - I know it's backed up on tape somewhere ....

 

[iza]

pivan and jeff, i think you're only HALF right. Some people just don't know WHERE to look for and WHAT to look for because they lack EDUCATION, not because they don't want to. Now, among those who have enough education, you're right - if they still didn't manage to learn let them alone ...

 

[MasterRacker]

iza, I don't know about that. If nothing else, simply asking questions of others gets one going. The real starting point is wanting to in the first place.

To address the earlier question: the term "professional" is not usually used in terms of professional vs. unprofessional. When you see the term "professional" in an article or salary survey, etc. is is being used in the context of professional vs. laborer or "white collar" vs. "blue collar". In this context, professionals work in an office, usually at a desk (and these days using a computer) whereas laborers or tradesman work on the factory foor, assembly lines or on a construction site, etc.

I'm not saying this right or wrong or that that people that don't work an office aren't professionals, I'm simply clarifying the context that's usually implied.
Jeff

I haven't lost my mind - I know it's backed up on tape somewhere ....

 

[pivan]

iza
"Some people just don't know WHERE to look for and WHAT to look for because they lack EDUCATION, not because they don't want to."
I understand what you are saying...but without having to go into what I had to do to get my education...I disagree...if one really wants something bad enough you will find out WHERE and WHAT...real quick. The question is how much energy and help ( if any at all) do we want to give those who need the spoon feeding and hand holding?

Its funny,,, I was trying to find the Websters definition of Professional. No one here has a dictionary, books on Java, COM, Patterns, Use Cases, Function Point Analysis abound...but not a single dictionary in the house.

An additional point regarding the looks of a profesional. Whatever that is... "If it don't go, chrome it" was a saying here in Southern California back in the 60's used by those who built high powered muscle cars for street racing concerning cars that didn't perform and as a last result a lot of chrome was put on...so at least you could pick up chicks. A lot like high paid consultants who don't deliver. You are right just because you wear a suit, doesn't mean you are good at what you do. And because you wear a mickey mouse t-shirt and cut offs doesn't make you a good programmer. (Personally, the code that comes from these guys usually gets the job done, but it is often uncommented, unmaintainable, hackish, they are often dysfunctional in their interpersonal relationships at work and act like primaddonas and can get away with all of the above because their boss is either of the same cloth or their manager doesn't ahve a clue as to how to manage a developement organization) IMHO!!

The truth of the matter. Its really about competency and being good at what you do and maitaining a balanced set of skills that allow you to perform...competently. To me thats a professional, doesnt necesarly mean that you are a lawyer, architect, doctor, or accountant...these are professionals as defined by the text book.

In the blue collar world journeyman is used synonamously for professional.

Sorry for the babble and rant

Regrds,
pivan

In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[butchrecon]

It all boils down to the driveb and thirst for knowledge. If one is interested in learning more, one will. If they are not interested in learning more, they wont. There has always been and always will be a division between the learned and unlearned people. Will never change. James Collins
Systems Support Engineer
A+, MCP

email: butchrecon@skyenet.net

Please let us (Tek-tips members) know if the solutions we provide are helpful to you. Not only do they help you but they may help others.

 

[Jui]

I just want to clarify that the tension of the gap of the professional and unprofessinal will become greater. It is proven in reality if we look at develop and poor country. As pointed by Pivan, I agree that knowledge is POWER. Therefore, it will create a social issue where rich people will become richer and poor people will become poorer. How our world would be in the future? Whose responsibility to overcome this social dilemma?

Jui

 

[iza]

pivan/butcheron, you're right but only for half of the people - if you haven't learnt to learn you can't (even if you want it badly badly badly) learn fast, that's the way it goes ... and some people never learnt to be curious, never learnt to learn, and not because they didn't want to, but because that's how they were educated (sad to say, but i've been working with kids and even when they're 3 or 4 you KNOW that some of them won't be able to learn, and NOT because they don't want it, but because they haven't been given the 'weapons' to - and even if school is supposed to help to reduce this gap it obviously doesn't). So you're right for those who CAN - if they don't it's only they are stupid/lazy.
What i mean is that i agree to spoon feed someone with no arm (i understand s/he NEEDS it), i won't for someone who can feed him/herself. That's this difference i wanted to point out.
pivan : about the professional, i totally agree. The only important thing it's what is getting done and how. If it is done and well done, then it was a professional - that's the one and only criteria !! iwas just trying to (inelegantly i agree !) explain 'pat suth' that the appearance was NOTHING
and jui, it's a circle that'll never end : if you're poor you're not given the weapons to learn (likely, actually some do and make a great use of it !!), and if you can't learn, you won't have power, and if you don't have power, you'll remain poor (_if_ you want to remain honnest - or else there are many many ways to be rich without any power nor knowledge !!). But it's not new at all and many writers / philosophers tackled with those subject in the end of last century (1800 -> 1899) and the beginning of this one (1900 -> 1914/17). Obviously it has not changed.

 

[gunthnp]

the def of Professional 1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession

I like that it pionts out its how you act AND what you know its two part

this shows that it way of thinking which was been pionted out by iza that a lot of people don't share.

gunthnp
Have you ever woken up and realized you where not alive.

 

[LittleWing]

not another thread gone mad!!!

As a professional senior software engineer, obviously i have a better idea where to find knowledge and apply that to my work than, say, my local milk man. Why would he care about C++ pointers, PL/SQL memory tables or EJB containers?

At the same time, there is probably a whole lot i don't know about the dairy products business that my milk man would know.

It all balences out in the end...i don't think we should get very worried about it...it simple comes down to exposure to particular technologies at the end of the day.

 

[iza]

LittleWing my hero : you saved the thread ! )

 

[pivan]

iza:

I really believe that for some people there is a barrier to learning how to learn. I also believe that in this case (being a Budhist, and a Marxist) one who has these abilities (you and I) should demenstrate some compassion and help, as much or as little, these people to learn.

As a sidebar, I would like to teach programming to the ghetto kids here in LA...Compilers and IDE's are cheap, and it would provide a path other then sports for these kids to make something of their lives.

Yes..their is a rapidly growing gap in incomes throughout the world, fueling this gap is the access to information and ones ability to learn/assimalate this information. I think that, while not a major problem now, our sons and daughters will be spearheading a revolution that will resolve this gap.

Regards,
pivan In not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

Just do it!!

 

[gunthnp]

I at lest was not saying that you need to be in tech to be a pro its a away of thinking and learning that a lot of people do not have. it a want to learn and do better and grow no matter what bussness you in. gunthnp
Have you ever woken up and realized you where not alive.

 

[Niv3k]

There are two colleges I am going to use as examples in my area, both are community colleges. In one, They are still teaching COBOL and C and VB. The have labs with these 3 compilers on the local machines.

At the other, they are teaching C++ , Java, COBOL, VB, C, and others. They have labs with all the server software kids need to learn Web or Client/server developement, etc...

The difference? They are both in different counties. Kids in the first county go to a community college and learn an almost dead mainframe language, and some basic VB. (as a VB developer, I have looked into the curriculum, and it doesn't get very technical at all) The most advanced database they use? MS Access.

Kids from the other county go and learn the most common (C++, java, VB) desktop languages, and can optionally elect to learn the mainframe stuff. Databases: Sybase, SQL Server, Access, and Oracle.

Point? Like it or not, people are moving away from Mainframes. Client/server stuff is not much different in concept, but COBOL will not let you write so much as an object. Anyone wanting a job that has COBOL as the only language on their resume is not going to advance very far in their career. And COBOL is not a good programming background to advance to C++ or java.

I have talked to many people who want to &quot;get their foot in the door.&quot; I tell them how much work I did to get into this field, how much stuff I learned that I don't use anymore. Quite often they shake their head, and say, &quot;man, that's too much work.&quot;

Well, those are my thoughts/experiences. There are four parts to this argument:
1. People that know, and continue learning
2. People that don't know yet, but are learning.
3. People that want to know, but aren't wlling to put in the effort.
4. People that don't care, and never will.

And you find people in suits in all four categories, and people in jeans in all four categories.

Kevin