The future may be bright- but I miss the good old days! 18

[guestgulkan]

Take me back to the 1980's when engineers really were engineers.
Computers were new, and you could still go down to
Maplins for a packet of discrete electronic components.
Assembly language was the thing
Ethernet? About 10 people the world knew what that was.
It was like the pioneering days of the old west.

Now, engineers have been reduced to simple 'black box' changers and any half-wit can become an engineer or programmer.

I suppose it's all in the name of progress, but for me the fun and personal job satisfaction has gone.

 

[Bullschmidt]

<<
Take me back to the 1980's when engineers really were engineers.

Computers were new...Now, engineers have been reduced to simple 'black box' changers and any half-wit can become an engineer or programmer.

I suppose it's all in the name of progress, but for me the fun and personal job satisfaction has gone.
>>

Now IT is so big that you can find some new niches that some experienced pros can still make a bundle of money being able to handle the right new technology. Of course the flipside is that choosing the wrong technology can be a career penalty.

Best regards,
J. Paul Schmidt - Freelance ASP Web Developer

http://www.Bullschmidt.com

- Creating &quot;dynamic&quot; Web pages that read and write from databases...

 

[rexxxy]

I feel that there is an under tone on this topic that generically speaking 'if its hard to use, its better'. I am preparing to get flamed here!! But really im reading that OS/2 is better than Windows... Why? What makes OS/2 so much better? Its harder to install and has little support.

 

[guestgulkan]

I suppose the terms 'easy' and 'difficult' in this context are purely in the mind of the programmer/user.
Windows programming/usage is seen as easy, so it attracts a lot of low compentence, mediocre programming/hardware talent.
There is a lot of trashy buggy windows applications/shareware out there, and a huge number of incompetent hardware engineers who fancy themselves as computer experts.

OS/2 and UNIX clones are seen as 'difficult' - and so tend to be avoided by these amateurs and incompetents.

 

[svanels]

Any thing that is not done by a few mouse clicks and has no fancy GUI is seen like difficult, complicated and is treated like rocket science.

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[Stevehewitt]

GuestGulkan:
I have agreed with many of your post previously, but your last one seriously offended me! You are saying that Windows users/programmers are mainly

&quot;incompetent hardware engineers who fancy themselves as computer experts.&quot;

What a small world you must live in. I have never used OS/2 and only played with Unix/Linux. Don't dismiss Windows because it has a (sorta) logical GUI that people can relate to. Regardless of what OS you are using, as long as the result is the same (efficient, reliable and secure network) then no matter if your an &quot;engineer&quot; on Unix, OS/2, Windows or Mac - your as good as each other.

Steve Hewitt

 

[manarth]

Steve - go easy on GuestGulkan:
&quot;Windows programming/usage is seen as easy, so it attracts a lot of low compentence, mediocre programming/hardware talent.&quot;

He's right, Windows is SEEN as easy, and does attract talentless admin types, many of whom can get windows to just about chug along, with only the sporadic fatal error

This isn't to say that all Windows engineers are crap, merely that the crap engineers flock to Windows....it's an important distinction!

<marc> i wonder what will happen if i press this...[ul][li]please give feedback on what works / what doesn't[/li][li]need some help? how to get a better answer: faq581-3339[/li][/ul]

 

[guestgulkan]

No - SteveHewitt - you misunderstand me.
What I was saying is that Windows is preceived as 'easy'.
I'm sure you cannot deny that there are a lot of mediocore, even plain incompetent people in the Windows arena who are
giving it a bad name.

 

[svanels]

You have incompetent people everywhere also in the Linux etc. arena.
I do not think Windows has a bad name, the user demands windows. IT is a service it must support other (core) processes that bring in the money.
It doesn't matter if the Mail-Server is on Linux, Solaris, NT, HP-UX or whatever, and the production lines are stopped.



Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[mutant]

One of the serious problems with the computer field is that it has never been treated the same as engineers, lawyers, doctors, or even like secretaries.

Secretaries have in the past had to pass at least a typing test and meet specific criteria to perform the job. Being a skilled typist requires both training and practice.

It should be obvious that the complexity of the computer field should put it in the same vein as engineers, lawyers and doctors. Yet, the vast majority of departments that manage an organization's computers are not lead, managed or staffed by individuals that could pass the equivalence of a license to practice in the computer field. Given such a situation, you will often find environments that are managed by the unqualified and make seriously poor choices. The choices they make are based on their ability, the best advertisement or sales push, and not the technical requirements or long-term benefits of the organization.

I have worked for some of the most incompetent people whom convinced their superiors that they were doing a great job. Usually, the superiors knew less than them and did not have the ability to question their ability. In many cases, these individuals were hired for all the wrong reasons.

In one instances, a Chemist with a Master's degree built this nightmare of a database and convinced his boss that he should be put in charge of a computer group. In the six months I worked for him, I couldn't convince the individual that the design was seriously flawed. During that six months, he lost his entire staff: a PhD in Computer Science, a PhD in Environmental Sciences, a PhD in Biology, an MS in Computer Science and a BS in Computer Science. The bad part was even though as a group we talked to upper management, they made the stupid choice to back him rather than listen to the staff. I call that the Osterich mentality - stick your head in the sand and ignore reality. The really funny part was that he had the same hair style as Dilbert's boss.

A second situation involved the incompetent that was a serial bully (see

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm).

In this case, the Jekyll and Hyde attribute provided the manager the ability to control his staff. This type of person is dangerous and can be very damaging to your career.

Anyhow, back to the basic concept. Until the computer profession is treated as a profession, you will continue to get the blue screen of death and other horror stories. The bad aspect of this is that this lower standard is being accepted as the standard by the community as a whole. Some have argued that it is similar to certifying a car safe versus certifying that a plane is safe. I think it is somewhat more complex than that. It is one thing to build a quality product, at either the car's safety standard or the plane's safety standard, but you still need to build a product that is maintainable. Additionally, if you buy a vehicle that consumes lots of fuel, it will cost more in the long run to operate. If you buy an underpowered vehicle, other problems pop up. If the roads or landing strips are not maintained, it will damage the vehicle. If you do not have a properly licensed and possibly insured individual driving the vehicle, you are just being negligent.

What can any of us do about this? Probably not much.

 

[Stevehewitt]

OK. On re-reading your post I have changed my tune a bit. There does seem to be a stigma attatched to NT Admins by other OS Admins. If your a NT Admin your in the lower scale of IT, not capable of &quot;real&quot; networking.

Sorry anyhow!

Something I would like to comment on though is the idea of a test to the geting into the IT market. I'm sure many people in this forum and hundered on this site have taken MCP, CCNA, MCSD, MCSE, IBM Quallifications, Notes Admin Exams and many more. I've taken a MCP a while ago. I don't think i learnt anything, and passed the first time I took the exam. Now, about a year ago, AD died on me and I had to talk to the consultant about getting passed it. This is when I learnt the ntdsutil.exe tool. Shouldn't I have learnt this on the course? I personally think all current exams are marketing spin posed as technical data. Now, I could not have taken the MCP course, and recover AD from a distaster in a matter of minutes. A guy who just came out of a MCP exam with a pass wouldn't be able to.

Exams in this industry wouldn't work a a true benchmark.

Steve Hewitt

 

[mutant]

There is a big difference between these certification programs and being licensed like a mechanical engineer, civil engineer, doctor, or lawyer. Try passing the bar exam - even after you have graduated from a law school.

 

[dilettante]

It goes further than that.

A lot of these programs are pretty worthless except to get you to pass the cert exams. Some are more honest and lebel them &quot;exam cram&quot; and the like.

Their purpose isn't to teach you much of anything, just to get you through an exam. One has to wonder if a parrot could get certified given enough of this &quot;training&quot; and if allowed to take them orally.

 

[jad]

I failed my course at college ...

I was in there fighting for the friggin' degree for 5 years ... a mate of mine reckons i should have gotten the long service medal ...

big problem for me is that all the courses had a huge emphasis on essay writing, and my thoughts aren't structured for writting essays, especially not with pen and paper, especially not linear.

I failed my course, but to be perfectly honest my IT skills, in some aspects, were the best in all the years i sat. I learnt ADA, and learnt it better than all but about 2 of the lecturers at my college. I learnt C coding, and learnt that better and more structured at the time than anyone else in my class. I learnt JSP and OOP, and used it for programming (to help me visualise the project, after visualising it isn't really that needed), but could do that better by final year than anyone else in the class.

My style was so noticable that if other students started getting better marks, they could spot the pieces of code i had helped them to finish.

however i don't have any computing qualifications to my name. The Company i'm currently at knows this, but doesn't care, it knows my skills, it can see them.

Passing a test to get into IT does not make you better at IT. Proving you can, under real life situations, does.

<!-- include Rant --!>

2cents.

Jon

 

[mutant]

Being successful or being productive is distinctly different than being a qualified professional.

If my memory serves me correctly, Bill Gates never completed college. You can call him successful and productive, but the quality of the Microsoft products lend credence to the concept of quality in regards to professional leadership. Is Bill Gate's objective to produce a high quality product, or to produce a product to quickly make money? You can throw out any belief that producing the quality product costs more money, as it typically costs more money to fix problems - especially, when you consider the cost of every company that has to constantly patch the products to prevent security problems. In the case of Microslop, the customer appears to be the tester for Independent Verification and Validation (IV&V) of the products quality. (Now that should open a can of wiggly worms).

In general, successful major computer projects require a greater amount of up-front time to develop the project management, specifications, manuals and things like test plans. All this requires the ability to communicate effectively. To just be able to whip out some code does not equate to being professional. Writing sound and complete specifications, manuals, test plans, etc., eliminates many of the sloppy aspects of products.

If airplanes were built to the same standards as business-related computer software, I think more people would be driving, taking the bus or taking the train. It might be bad enough that you wouldn't even want to live anywhere a plane might fly near you or your house.

 

[dilettante]

Well mutant, one can only wonder how much time you have put into Microsoft's beta programs.

 

[mutant]

Here is one of my experiences with Microslop. I was using an early C compiler and found an error in the floating point part of their product. I reported the error. They confirmed it and said if I want the fix it would cost me $14.

They should of paid me for debugging their compiler.

 

[greyted]

mutant,
You have to admire them do you not, classic.


Ted

A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
(William James)

 

[mutant]

I don't know if the correct term is &quot;admire them&quot;, it would be more like &quot;I confirm their dominance which correspondingly leaves us submissive&quot;. Even in the early days of microcomputers, I preferred their products over other products like Borland's. I have been around long enough to have seen the birth of micros. Machines that just had lights, switches and simple ports, through CP/M, DOS, V1.x of Windows (I still have a copy on 5.25&quot, using the Windows Toolkit before Visual products were available, .... I own some of the original MS compilers and assemblers: COBOL, Assembly, FORTRAN, C, and Pascal.

Again, as for &quot;admiring them&quot;, I don't believe that is the correct term.

It would be nice to see Microsoft attaining ISO 9002 compliance. Specifically in regards to the standard's item number 4.10 thru 4.14.

 

[greyted]

mutant,
I suppose admire was the wrong word but you have to admit it was barefaced cheek?
Guess you should them have told you had found an error and then charged them $20 to inform them what and where it was.

Sorry if my post upset you, but it wasn't meant to confirm my admiration of or for any of their products, so I apologise if it did.





Ted

A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
(William James)

 

[mutant]

Ted,

I didn't take any offense. I find these forums to be very useful. These forums are a great way to bounce ideas around to make sure they make some form of sense. A lot of what I have to say is off the top of my head. I'm actually dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome and find it very difficult just to externalize my energy to formulate these statements. I was in a car wreck when I was 5 and am suffering with chronic pain because my skeletal system was twisted in the wreck. The pain internalizes much of my energy to manage the pain, and this results in fatique problem.

Anyhow, I enjoy hearing feedback in any form. If I cannot support what I'm saying, then I deserve to be flamed. But, if I can support it, then that is sufficient for me.

No apologies necessary. Just be a thoughtful communicator and learn from these forums. They are great.