That vs. which - again 3

[ESquared]

I said somewhere or other, "it has its own aspects which those who disagree can target."

I think it should have been "it has its own aspects that those who disagree can target."

I think my phrase was wrong because which seems to imply a clause coming that starts with a verb modifying it. For example, "it has its own aspects which are interesting" or "it has its own aspects which annoy me."

But I am not sure that this should be which here, either. A that would work also.

Help?

 

[CajunCenturion]

In general, 'that' is used to introduce restrictive clauses, and 'which' is used for non-restrictive clauses.

How can you tell the difference?

Remove the clause from the sentence and see if the meaning has remained the same. If it has, then the clause is non-restrictive and so 'which' would be correct. If the meaning is changed, then the clause is restrictive, that is, the clause restricts the meaning of the sentence, and therefore, 'that' is correct.

I think in all your examples, 'that' is correct.

Is the meaning of "It has its own aspects" different from "It has its own aspects that are interesting"? I think it is because the notion of interesting exists in the second sentence, but not in the first. That means the clause 'that are interesting' is restrictive, and therefore, should be introduced with 'that'.

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[ESquared]

Thank you!

Do you have an example of a grammatical sentence for me that starts with "it has its own aspects which"?

E

 

[SantaMufasa]

E₂, I'll share a little "poor man's trick" that I use to distinguish when to use these two terms (because I am a poor man), which provides a mnemonic to remember which term to use.

In addition to CC's excellent explanation ("that" = restrictive; "which" = non-restrictive), here is how I remember:

that: begins with a "t"...in fonts such as Helvetica, a "t" looks like the pointer-needle on a compass...it defines where you are headed. Without a compass needle, you are lost...you need it to determine where you are going.

Likewise, you use "that" when the description/restriction is vital to point out to the listener specifically what you are talking about, and if you leave off the "that..." phrase, the listener won't know for sure the object to which you are referring.

For example,

I like only chocolate-chip cookies that my mother makes

This means "the only chocolate-chip cookies that I like are ones that my mother makes, and no one else's chocolate-chip cookies.


We'll compare/contrast "that" with "which" after we explain a mnemonic for when to you "which".

which: To remember when to use "which", think of the near homophone, "witch"...When a coven of witches gather together, they just gossip about non-essential or extraneous information. Therefore, use "which" when the information that accompanies it is just so much non-essential, additional (perhaps interesting) information, but it is information that is not necessary to clarify the specific subject of the sentence.

Using the previous sample sentence, but replacing "that" with "which", notice how the meaning of the sentence changes:

I like only chocolate-chip cookies, which my mother makes

The meaning here is that I do not prefer eating anything except for chocolate-chip cookies, and, incidentally, my mother happens to bake such cookies. The fact that my mother makes such is simply gossipy, incidental, unneccessary information.


Also notice that when you use "which" in this sense (as incidental, non-restrictive information), we always show that it is unnecessary information with a preceding comma...That is why, in each case above, I show the comma within the bold-face type...You would not use a comma preceding "that" since such a clause is vital to the listener's clearly knowing the specific subject to which you are referring.

So, in summary, "that" is a vital pointer clarifying the specific subject of the sentence; ", which" is unnecessary "gossip" that adds spice about the subject, but the spice is not necessary to restrict whom or what we are talking about.

Does that help a little?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Do you have an example of a grammatical sentence for me that starts with "it has its own aspects which"?

It has its own aspects that are interesting.

The clause 'that are interesting' changes the aspects by adding an attribute to them.

It has its own aspects which are explained in the appendix.

The clause 'which are explained ...' doesn't change anything about the aspects.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[ESquared]

Very helpful, both of you. Thank you very much.

I always appreciate being able to learn something and keep it. I usually have an easier time of it than I seem to have had with that vs. which. I think your explanations have done the trick this time, and I will remember for the future!

<- a pleased E²

 

[MallardVHS]

My own personal learnations (did I just disqualify myself?,, nevermind....) was that THat referred to THings while WHich referred to people type persons of a human type.


Don

[green]Tis far easier to keep your duck in a row if you just have the one.[/green]

 

[sleipnir214]

I use the mnemonic of imagining asking a child to pick a puppy from a cage with many in it.

Your question will be, "Which one?"

The answer will be a pointing finger and the words, "That one."


The question includes all the puppies so is non-restrictive (so: which => non-restrictive). [Yes, I know this is a different meaning for which. But it's my mnemonic.]

The answer includes exactly one puppy, and so is restrictive. (so: that => restrictive).


Of course, a heck of a lot of


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[ESquared]

a heck of a lot of

Run that all together and it could be the name of a Russian hot sauce or alcoholic drink or something: a Hekavalotov.

 

[sleipnir214]

Sorry, that fragment was part of an additional comment I changed my mind about making but forgot to remove because of an interruption. But since it's out there, I'll complete the statement.

Of course, a heck of a lot of people who have no idea there is a difference in usage, or what that difference would be. Or at least that's what seems to be the case: sites found with a Google search of that which often mention that the two words are often used interchangeably.


Want the best answers? Ask the best questions! TANSTAAFL!

 

[ESquared]

Sorry, I didn't mean to poke fun at you. I simply am of the sort that is easily amused which should be abundantly apparent through all my posts.

 

[SantaMufasa]

...THat referred to THings while WHich referred to people type persons of a human type.

Sorry, bud, those distinctions are about as dependable as:

"Food" is anything that is green; "Drink" is anything that is without hue.

<grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[ESquared]

The memory aid in this thread that was the most useful for me was SantaMufasa's which I am very grateful for!

Of course, CC also gave me the full technical explanation for applying the simpler mnemonic... the one is a bridge to the other.

 

[sleipnir214]

That is a limitation of my mnemonic -- you have to know about and understand the concepts of restrictive and non-restrictive clauses for it to be useful to you.


Want the best answers? Ask the best questions! TANSTAAFL!

 

[mmerlinn]

I use 'that' when the clause it introduces modifies the clause it is attached to, in other words, restricts the clause.

I use 'which' (with a preceding comma) to add extraneous non-modifying information, in other words, 'gossip' as noted above.


mmerlinn

"Political correctness is the BADGE of a COWARD!"

 

[MallardVHS]

dear SaM:

Hugh Laurie won the Best Actor in a TV Drama last night. Irrelevant, I know. Unless you think about it.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter

[green]All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king. [/green]

JRR Tolkien

"Drink" is anything that is without hue.

Gotcha ! I've no use for Vodka either!

Don



[green]Tis far easier to keep your duck in a row if you just have the one.[/green]

 

[ESquared]

John Ronald Reuel Tolkein seems to have had his thats and whiches in order.

 

[MeGustaXL]

I thought I understood, and then:

The generator is fitted with a number of temperature sensors that/which* will cause the generator to shut down if the engine overheats.

*Delete [red]that which[/red] does not apply

Chris

When his pin is pulled, Mr Grenade is not our friend - USMC Infantry Manual

 

[columb]

It could be either.

If the option is 'that' then the generator is fitted with the sort of temperature sensors that cause generators to shut down.

If the option is 'which' then the generator is fitted with an unknown sort of sensor who's action is to shut down this, and no other, generator.

Or have I too got it wrong?

Ceci n'est pas une signature
Columb Healy

 

[MeGustaXL]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHH!

Chris

When his pin is pulled, Mr Grenade is not our friend - USMC Infantry Manual