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Stupid news comment 1
- Thread starter tsdragon
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Understand that I don't mean to belittle the pope, but is it possible to be sure he isn't? It feels a bit like Weekend at Bernie's sometimes.
I don't see how anyone can be sure that any message from the pope is actually from him and not the non-elected "inner circle" that surrounds him.
Just my 2 cents
~Thadeus
I don't see how anyone can be sure that any message from the pope is actually from him and not the non-elected "inner circle" that surrounds him.
Just my 2 cents
~Thadeus
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1
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
That certainly was a poor statement from the news. I think the significance, and the intent, of the statement is that yesterday was the first time in twenty five years that this Pope did not lead Sunday services.
But what an awful way to say it. You would think a professional journalist would have better command of the language.
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But what an awful way to say it. You would think a professional journalist would have better command of the language.
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The phraseology (?) is quite Catholic orientated .... but nevertheless is badly put !!!!
JP II has been VERY ill and had a tracheotomy to allow him to breath.
I do agree with Thadeus, the inner workings of the Catholic Church are shrouded in mystery to say the very least. I would say thought, that any input will have only been quite recent, despite the illnesses, JP II is a very charasmatic man with a massive presence (I met him in Rome) so I can't see him being too "bullied" !!!
<Do I need A Signature or will an X do?>
JP II has been VERY ill and had a tracheotomy to allow him to breath.
I do agree with Thadeus, the inner workings of the Catholic Church are shrouded in mystery to say the very least. I would say thought, that any input will have only been quite recent, despite the illnesses, JP II is a very charasmatic man with a massive presence (I met him in Rome) so I can't see him being too "bullied" !!!
<Do I need A Signature or will an X do?>
>I don't see how anyone can be sure that any message from the pope is actually from him and not the non-elected "inner circle" that surrounds him.
Very very little comes from the Pope alone. Everything is choreographed for maximum "holy" effect. I am not belittling the papacy. But, the Vatican is just as political as any other country.
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Very very little comes from the Pope alone. Everything is choreographed for maximum "holy" effect. I am not belittling the papacy. But, the Vatican is just as political as any other country.
__________________________________________
Try forum1391 for lively discussions
CajunCenturion
Programmer
That being said, I'm sure we all agree that the language of this statement leaves a lot be desired.
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
Thadeus - The coordinating conjunction 'but' should be used when the two clauses contrast with each other. I don't find 'following' and 'not leading' to be contrasting. If, as stated in the first clause, the Pope will be following services, what contrast is being presented in the second clause?
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Stella740pl
Programmer
CC,
The coordinating conjunction 'but' should be used when the two clauses contrast with each other.
I don't find it always to be the case. Could you suggest a better conjunction for the sentence? Or better phrasing, for that matter?
I also understood it immediately.
CC Leading is used here in the context of being the Celebrant of the Mass .... I think the idea that is meant is that although JP II won't be on the altar actually saying the Mass, he will be there "In Spirit" (i.e. he's not quite dead yet !!!!)
<Do I need A Signature or will an X do?>
<Do I need A Signature or will an X do?>
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I understood it immediately as well, but understanding it does not mean it's grammatically correct.
There are several coordinating conjunctions that may be used including and, but, for, nor, or, so, and yet. Which is best to use depends on the relationship between the two independant clauses being joined.
In this case, the second clause is redundant. If you 'are following', then by defintion, you have to be 'not leading'. It is redundant therefore, not contrasting. However, consider the following, which is simply a reversal of the two clauses.
The Pope will not be leading services this Sunday, but he will be following them.
The difference is that 'not leading' does not mean that you are following. You can be doing nothing. Therefore, you have a clause of what the Pope is not doing, contrasted with a clause about what he is doing.
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
There are several coordinating conjunctions that may be used including and, but, for, nor, or, so, and yet. Which is best to use depends on the relationship between the two independant clauses being joined.
In this case, the second clause is redundant. If you 'are following', then by defintion, you have to be 'not leading'. It is redundant therefore, not contrasting. However, consider the following, which is simply a reversal of the two clauses.
The Pope will not be leading services this Sunday, but he will be following them.
The difference is that 'not leading' does not mean that you are following. You can be doing nothing. Therefore, you have a clause of what the Pope is not doing, contrasted with a clause about what he is doing.
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
If you insist on using the same construct, I think 'so' would be a better choice as the coordinating conjunction. So is used when the second clause follows, as in a conclusion, from the first clause.
The Pope will be following services this Sunday, so he will not be leading them.
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The Pope will be following services this Sunday, so he will not be leading them.
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Stella740pl
Programmer
I agree that your first construct really is clearer than the original one.
The Pope will not be leading services this Sunday, but he will be following them.
Your second construct, though, is more confusing than the original sentence. It sounds as artificial as a cause-and-effect example for elementary school students.
The Pope will be following services this Sunday, so he will not be leading them.
Almost like
The Pope will be following services this Sunday, therefore he will not be leading them.
Just my opinion, anyway.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I agree that the second construct appears to be an artificial cause-and-effect example. My first thought when 'hearing' it was "duh!!!". But I don't see 'but' working any better, and to some degree, I think it's worse because you're stuck trying to find a contrast in a tautology.
In any event, one benefit of this thread is that it illustrates that choice of coordinating conjunction does make a difference.
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In any event, one benefit of this thread is that it illustrates that choice of coordinating conjunction does make a difference.
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
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- #16
I think some of you are missing my point. Regardless of whether you use "but", "so", "therefore", or any other conjunction the statement is stupid. "Following" is the opposite of "leading". If the Pope is following the services he cannot be leading them, and vice versa. Either of the two statements alone would have been sufficient. Combining them offers no new information whatsoever, and is completely redundant.
That is what I thought was so stupid.
And I have another pet peeve that one of the posts here reminded me of: People who say "orientated" instead of "oriented". (No offense to the person who did that is intended.)
Tracy Dryden
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.![[dragon]](/data/assets/smilies/dragon.gif "[dragon] [dragon]")
That is what I thought was so stupid.
And I have another pet peeve that one of the posts here reminded me of: People who say "orientated" instead of "oriented". (No offense to the person who did that is intended.)
Tracy Dryden
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.
Actually, I think 'but' works much better. It contrasts his normal activity to his current activity in a measure of degree (or something).CajunCenturion said:
Q: If JP[sup]2[/sup] is not leading the service, will he be listening or watching? Does he have some input on the services? What the deuce is going on with the Pope?
A: He will be following the services.
..oh, thanks.
[red]Note:[/red] [gray]The above comments are the opinionated ravings of Mr3Putt. As such, Mr3Putt accepts no responsibility for damages, real or contrived, resulting from acceptance of his opinions as fact.[/gray]
Stella740pl
Programmer
I agree with Mr3Putt that 'but' works much better. The combination of 2 clauses does bear additional information, and does contrast his normal activity to his current activity.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
The purpose of a coordinating conjunction is to establish the relationship between the two independent clauses in the sentence. As originally written, the first clause is:
The Pope will be following services this Sunday, but,
With respect to your question Mr3Putt, you already have the answer. The Pope will be following the services. It is not until the second clause that the 'not leading' is brought into play. If the second independent clause of a sentence suggests a question already answered in the first independent clause, then, as in this case, you have a tautology, not a contrast.
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The Pope will be following services this Sunday, but,
With respect to your question Mr3Putt, you already have the answer. The Pope will be following the services. It is not until the second clause that the 'not leading' is brought into play. If the second independent clause of a sentence suggests a question already answered in the first independent clause, then, as in this case, you have a tautology, not a contrast.
Good Luck
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