salary and overtime 1

[drago762]

This question is directed to those who earn salary pay. How many hours are you expected to work a week?
I'm looking into a programming position which pays salary. My fear is that I would be working 60-70 hours a week for no extra overtime pay. What steps would I need to take to protect myself here so I would not be obligated to donate half my free time to the company free of charge?

 

[BocaBurger]

Welcome to the world of IT. I think the majority of IT people are salaried, not on an hourly wage.

If I would have had overtime for all the hours I put in since I started in IT, I would have retired rich, years ago.

Not just working long weekly hours, but the weekend upgrade, and the system down calls at 3AM when some idiot cleaner needed to plug in a vacuum cleaner and decided the ups would protect his machine too.




BocaBurger
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The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

 

[MasterRacker]

Not much you can do about it. There are two general classifications of job descriptions: hourly and exempt. Exempt means exempt from overtime and applies mainly to "white collar" jobs, mostly management and "learned professionals" such as lawyers, engineers, doctors, etc. Unfortunatley there is a specific clause in the Fair Labor Standards act singling out decision making computer professionals. Those of us in IT are screwed - long hours, no OT is the normal expectation.

http://www.mrsc.org/subjects/legal/flsa/propchanges.aspx

http://www.lmnc.org/pdfs/flsa2.pdf

The second document is from Minnesota but it summarizes the federal requirements pretty well.

[sub]Jeff
[purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

"The software I buy sucks, The software I write sucks. It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me[/sub]

 

[lespaul]

I get to adjust my workday schedule or accrue comp time for extraordinary time spent on a project or any On-Call time I have to work. I track my time and usually end up only working an extra 2 - 3 hours a pay period.

Good luck!


Leslie

Anything worth doing is a lot more difficult than it's worth - Unknown Induhvidual

Essential reading for anyone working with databases: The Fundamentals of Relational Database Design

 

[drago762]

I guess I was just lucky that my first couple positions were hourly. I didn't realize that most IT positions were salary.

What kind of pay were you making while working salary? How many hours were you expected to work per week?

 

[EBGreen]

About 50-60 seems to be standard. I think it tends to fluctuate greatly depending on what is going on. During a critical upgrade it may go over 80. If your employer is a fan of flextime you may be able to get away with 30 right after a tough period.

[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]

 

[BocaBurger]

IT pay varies tremendously. How big is the company? Is it gov't or non-profit? Where are you located. The same job could have a pay range from $25k / yr to $80k / yr.

Novell engineers used to make good money (up to $135 per hour), but in Miami, Fl. they would get $35.00 / hr. or the salaried equivalent.



BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

 

[kHz]

I have been very fortunate that I have never had to work extreme numbers of hours. There have been occasions where I have had to work all night to restore a server from backup or do maintenance on all servers, but that is only occasional work. I am also on-call but that is rotational. I also had weekend work for server maintenance and upgrades, but that came with comp time.

My work schedule:
Medium-size family-owned company: 8/hr day ; had a software migration that didn't work the first time and had to be rescheduled a second time for a total of 2 overnights ; pager rotation every 3 or 4 weeks which would occasionally go off at 1AM or 2AM which would require an OCL fix (this went away after the migration) ; did some operations work which required my schedule to be night shift instead of day but it was still an 8/hr day. Worked an average of 50 hours a week (for overtime since I was hourly then). (5 years)

Fortune 400 company: 7.5/hr day ; weekend work 2 or 3 times a month ; pager rotation every 5 weeks ; worked out to probably an average of 42 or 45 hous a week. (4 years)

Govt job: 7.5/hr day ; 1 overnight maintenance work on SAN disk and all Unix servers ; 1 weekend maintenance call for SAN disk ; pager rotation every 3 weeks (never went off) ; pager only was to be called until 7PM central time (to account for Pacific time users). Worked 37.5 hours a week. (2 years)

Privately-held medium-sized company (internet company): 7.5/hr day ; pager rotation every 2 weeks, but it hasn't been a problem for a few months with the exception of last night when it required a few minutes work ; had new servers come in and had problems that required about 100/hr weeks for 2 weeks late last year ; early morning work that used to be monthly but is now supposed to be every few months ; Work an average of 40 hours a week (with the exception of those two weeks). (1 year)

 

[chiph]

In my case, I'm an hourly W2 employee with a contracting firm. So I get paid for overtime (averaging 50 hr weeks at the moment). The minor downside is it's not time-and-a-half, it's straight time. But it's nice to have, anyway. No complaints.

I went the contracting route after being laid-off from my previous two jobs. I feel that job security is an illusion anyway, so why not get paid for acknowledging it up front? I also don't get any benefits, but I can buy my own medical, dental & life insurance (combined) for much less than the just the medical Cobra benefits from the last job.

Chip H.


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[LadySlinger]

Make sure too that the position is indeed exempt position. At my last job, I found out after a year of working there that they were paying me salary, but I was listed as non-exempt. BIG NO-NO, but some companies try to get away with this so that they don't pay you overtime (I found out based on a HR Audit that was conduct for our office. I attempted to prove back pay for all the overtime I had worked, but was unable to produce something that was feasible).
I was almost listed as non-exempt/salary when I started my current job, but luckily HR caught it and corrected it.

All in all though I prefer salary as its a steady paycheck coming in. Plus this company paid me more money than hourly just to compensate if I have to do overtime. Plus they're pretty relaxed, I'm not working anymore than 40-45 hour weeks.

 

[langleymass]

Fortunately, there seems to be a backlash against working absurd hours. Many people who were stupid enough to do it discovered that it guaranteed them nothing. They found the projects they were working on ended sooner than expected, and then the company laid them off.

As employees, we just have to stand our ground. I have been in the situation as well and am still recovering from it.

I live in a pretty fun-loving city (Austin, Texas). Generally folks here would just rather have fun.

Your best strategy is to avoid such jobs in the first place. Get out there and talk to people. Find out who the good employers and the bad employers are. If you are unsure, make sure any job you take has some way of getting out reasonably easy.

I am getting signs that the job market is finally coming back. Back in the 1990's, there were plenty of suckers and pigeons who put in 60-70 hours a week. I don't think that is going to happen this time.

I am single, by the way. I put in about 40 hours a week, and get paid more than enough to pay my bills.

I do not care whether I get paid for overtime or not. I am not interested in working all the time--period. Nobody ever dies wishing they had spent more time on their job.

 

[Corran007]

All my companies ive been salaried and no overtime

first comapany bout 50 hours a week but only had to do 40, fortune 50 company
second, go go dot com days. worked 60-70 avg. i had over 100 hours some weeks. startup around 150 people before layoffs began
third, avged 50-60. i think this is just becaus i was used to my previous company, around 20
fourth, 45-50, 7000 person company but was retail so small it staff, only 15 people. privately held Fortune 500
fifth, 80 every 2 weeks with extermely flexiable hours. I could actually work all 80 one week and take the second off. As long as i made any meetigns i had to attend, fortune 100

I have no aversion to working long hours as needed. As i have progressed in my carrer, i am getting closer to the positions where overtime is expected due to the level of the positions.

 

[KornGeek]

I previously worked for a small privately owned company where the owner was under the impression that the hours worked should be based on the salary. He thought $40,000 should work 40+ hours per week, $50K was expected to work 50+, etc. I'm not sure what he would have expected from somebody earning $175,000. Needless to say, making a decent living made his expectations unrealistic.

After leaving there, I am much happier (and earning more money) working through a temp agency. Here, if I work over 40 hours, I get time and a half. I'm also doing some contracting on the side, where I get paid by the project, and my hourly rate is dictated by my efficiency.

 

[xmsre]

Ladyslinger said:

"Make sure too that the position is indeed exempt position. At my last job, I found out after a year of working there that they were paying me salary, but I was listed as non-exempt."

Excellent point. Also check applicable local and federal laws.

In the US, if you are exempt, it is because you are a highly paid computer professional making over a certain salary/dollar per hour amount. It wasn't too many years ago EMC lost a suit because the number of hours they required certain employees pushed the doller per hour mark below the legal requirement to be exempt. It pays to check the federal laws.

State & local laws. I hate to pick on EMC, but... it seems they have a lot of issues with labor laws.

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2006/01/31/suit_says_emc_is_violating_labor_laws/

 

[imeldesign]

I am salaried but still manage to work around 40 hrs a week. If I stay an extra hour I try to come in an hour later the very next day. If I can't I "save" them up and take Friday afternoon off. There are some big jobs and emergencies that require lots of extra time (like moving the entire network to a new building or relocating the d-mark (Phone system and Bellsouth). I can even work at home if I want and do on occasion and do when my asthma is acting up.

 

[langleymass]

I have had a few salary jobs where it averaged about 40 hours. If I put in maybe 50 hours one week, it was fine if I only did 30 the next.

If I am needed for more than 40 hours, it means that they need to hire someone else. And many times, it is also just a case of a company being in chaos mode. On one job, I wasted a great deal of time in meetings.

 

[aarenot]

I have had my employer offer me a salaried position numerous times, without my job duties changing. He has stated that it would give me a steady paycheck each pay period instead of varying depending on my hours worked. I have dealt with this by telling him he could not afford me on salary, as I would expect the customary perks and benefits which accompany a decision making computer professionals. I mention company vehicle, final decision making authority on my projects, tracking of hours to maintain my highly paid computer professional status, 25% increase in pay, as well as offering to become a contracted worker so he does not need to cover benefits, etc., but opening me up to work for other firms.
I am an exception though, I am one who values my fammily time before my income, I form personal relationships with our clients, and I do not want overtime hours even though I get OT pay. The biggest obstacle to this is my relationships with my customers, they request and sometimes demand that I provide their service. To the point of being willing to wait, or postpone their projects until I am available. This puts me in a position to negotiate about duties for which my expertise is not required to complete, time saving resources, and flexability of my schedule. I assume that this felibility I am afforded is what the market will bare because of the relationships I have with my customers.

You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[langleymass]

Aarenot gets a star.

 

[aarenot]

I was not looking for a star, but thank you langleymass. I think this is my first star in tek-tips, for a non-technical response.

You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[Thargy]

First of all, I am on the other side of the pond, so I speak English (as opposed to American) and think in pounds instead of dollars.

I am therefore subject do different legislation than you, but some common principles always apply. Having done my caveats, herewith I offer my three hap'orth of advice.

I quit a permie job and went contracting (with a big insurance company). I signed a "Professional Working Day" contract, which basically gave me an eight hour day, but extra time without pay to 'get the job done'. All went well until crunch time on the project. I did five consecutive days, never leaving before midnight (on one occasion 1 a.m.!) and racking up £140 in taxi fares home (you try catching a bus or train after midnight). I did double my normal hours in 4 days!

I'll never sign up to such a contract ever again, without a rider that if I do more than 3 hours overtime in a week, I'm getting paid for it. If a company isn't willing to pay for something, it's value has been assessed by said company as being zero. Why do work of zero worth?

The illusion that being permie gives job security is just that, an illusion. Contracting just makes it clear to all parties what they each think the other is worth.

I've since gone back to permie, but at £18,000 more than I used to be on - they liked me as a contractor, and made me an offer I couldn't refuse to go permie. Now, I know I'm wanted and my capabilities are respected. A whole new world.

Basically, don't ever do it for free.

Grinding away at things Oracular