salary and overtime 1

[drago762]

This question is directed to those who earn salary pay. How many hours are you expected to work a week?
I'm looking into a programming position which pays salary. My fear is that I would be working 60-70 hours a week for no extra overtime pay. What steps would I need to take to protect myself here so I would not be obligated to donate half my free time to the company free of charge?

 

[aarenot]

Tharg,
Geet'ins from the colonies. I see your point.

You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[NickFerrar]

I'm from the UK to and am salaried but my employer also pays overtime/on-call (although not necessarily as much as I'd want ), this is pretty standard over here. You'd have to pay me ridiculous amounts of money to have me salaried and expected to work 50-80 hour weeks on a regular basis with no O/T like some of you US ppl seem to, you have my sympathies!

 

[mmorancbt]

You must control the expectation and also look at the culture of the company you work for. For instance, law firms and consulting organizations that offer partnerships, expect a lot of unpaid hours from associates. It is highly stressful but many are willing because those who clear the partnership hurdle and produce can earn very nice incomes as a partner.

It is not what I would do, but, once again, you have to look at what you want professionally and how you can best get there.

You must also factor where you are in your career. Early on, I was more willing to put in unpaid time – either adopting new technologies or taking on responsibilities that were not part of my regular job description. I did this to prove my ability, not to put in more time. It was an issue of developing and exposing quality, not quantity. Many times this may have occurred away from the office – building tools or processes to make things run smoother while on the job and to automate away tedious tasks.

As a general rule, I would not work for an organization that simply expects you to work overtime. But I would not reject an organization that expects some personal time be sacrificed when necessary. The compensation cannot always be in direct dollars but may come in the form of increased responsibility and may not be seen until some time down the road.

This becomes a personal decision on your part. If an organization’s overtime requirements seem too costly for the potential reward, speak to your manager or director. Let them know your concerns and ask if this is simply expected or is there a life (light) at the end of the tunnel.

Matthew Moran (career blog and podcast below)
Career Advice with Attitude for the IT Pro

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career

http://techcareerconsult.blogspot.com

 

[aarenot]

The compensation cannot always be in direct dollars but may come in the form of increased responsibility and may not be seen until some time down the road."

This statement , unless it also entails an increase in pay for the added duties, and responsibilities, is not an increase in compensation. If you are going to add responsibilities, in lieu of a raise, that is a joke! That is like saying, you deserve a raise, but we will not give it to you now, but instead we can add some more responsibilities to your workload, and area of responsibility. {eople think so strangley, if they see that as a substitute for the showing of appreciation for extra time, effort, or productivity. If that is the way it works, do less, less well, and take more time. That is the same flawed type of reasonong as the quoted statement.



You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[mmorancbt]

Aarenot,

I will, respectfully disagree but only because I believe you misread my post. I am stating above that I believe it is wrong to make unpaid overtime a "part of the job." I indicate that one should look at the culture and see, is that what they do generally. If that is the way a company operates, I wouldn't work there.

My approach is more proactive than many are willing to do but I ended up advancing in my career much, much faster than like trained and skilled peers.

Why, if there was a project that I was not necessarily directly qualified for in respect to past project work - but I felt I could master, I would gladly take it on, work at home, learn on my time, master those skills - without direct compensation for the work I did.

It was a personal, not a company, decision. That is where I indicate early on in your career there may be times to undertake such a strategy. Basically, I forced myself into becoming a project manager this way. After I had successfully been managing projects - and taking over failing projects from others - I went to my boss and made my case. I was a project manager the following week - with the corresponding office, pay, perks, etc.

One of the saddest career halting ideas I've seen too many fall into is this idea that, I will start doing those things when they start paying me.

I always had the other approach. I will take over the role by doing the work of the role. I will make sure they know I'm doing this for the experience and will ask for the compensation down the road. You don't start advancing those skills to make dramatic career jumps by waiting until they pay you to learn those skills.

I never said that a company should come to you and say, "you have what it takes to take over these responsibilities but we won't pay you until you have done them on your own time." My approach places the impetus on the worker to be intrapreneurial - rather than the employer. I'm not even addressing what an employer's responsibility might be in this case.

That might just be because I was too impatient to wait for the time/tenue grid that many corporations employ for advancement. I simply determined that I will take myself off the grid - look at a role I want - do the work, and take over the position.

Fortunately, I worked with a director who felt the same way. Her department grew because she simply took over mismanaged departments that no one wanted, turned them around, and made them successful. Now she is a national VP.

It is a sound strategy.

Matthew Moran (career blog and podcast below)
Career Advice with Attitude for the IT Pro

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career

http://techcareerconsult.blogspot.com

 

[aarenot]

I would agree with that point of view. That is a far cry from being expected or demanded by a employer.
Just make sure your review is restricted to your performances within your job description. If negative feedback is given, take it, learn from it, improve based on it. That being said, any negative feedback for duties above and beyond your job description should be stricken from your permanent review record. If not, any negative or constructive feedback given should be noted as duties agreed to be, and in reference to your willingness to perform duties outside your job description, and thus should have a net positive reflection on your review.


You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[aarenot]

In short,
Do not let your boss give you any negative feedback on your written review about how well you perform his job. I have said to my boss, " do you really think it is wise to prove I am doing your job, by reviewing my performance of your duties? Let's keep this to the fact that I perform exceedingly in my own duties, and am helpful in areas beyond my area of responsibility as well.
I had a operations/ project manager who had me doing all of my own project management, then wanted to include crtique of my performance of his duties as a justification for not recieving the full available raise. I got the full raise. His critique was that my projects ran 2% over budget for my hours, including the project management time. lol.

You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.

 

[Spirit]

Off Topic:

"do you really think it is wise to prove I am doing your job, by reviewing my performance of your duties? Let's keep this to the fact that I perform exceedingly in my own duties, and am helpful in areas beyond my area of responsibility as well".

Hope you don't mind but that sentence is now committed to memory for future use.

On Topic:
Boils down to this ££££££ (or $$$$$) Versus A LIFE.

If you work 22 hour days make sure you're paid enough to retire at 35.
If you value your family life down tools and enjoy your kids growing up.

I am based in the UK and my boss the US. I notice quite a culture difference he/she likes to be seen on site at all times yet never really gets the "To Do" list down. Overtime me, I am in the car at 1630 ready to turn the key! Justify why I need to do the overtime.

Server Down? Yup I am there all night... Your
Mouse wobbles? yeah cya tomorrow!

Project running late erm perhaps you should have scheduled it better? Why should I work 20 hours days to cover you?

Personally I dont "Do" overtime I make sure I do my work in the allocated day. I perhaps do 5-6 a week over and above.

My mate said it best if you have to do occasional overtime then fine do it. But if you're doing overtime everyday ask why it's either;
You can't do your job, and need training or firing......
You have been given too much to do and need to deligate some or just say No I do not have time to do that or ask which piece of work takes priority.

Just my two pence worth.

Iain

P.S. Never met a guy on his death bed yet who said "I wish I just work a few extra hours a day" Choose life!

 

[aarenot]

Spirit,
No problem, I have found it helpful more than once. Get whatever mileage you can out of it.

On topic,
If you are not given the proper time, planning or resources to complete your duties without overtime, consider working for a company that performs better.

You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.