Poor grammar limits your job choices

[chiph]

I helped man my company's booth at a local job fair the other week. We had this person come up and after listening to them speak for a few minutes, all I could think was "You may be the best in the world at what you do, but there's no way I'm going to put you in front of a customer"

Their grammar and diction was just horrible.

Chip H.


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[r937]

you guys enjoy jumping all over me, don't you

i already told you, both those guys would go on to the next level

as i said, i'm not gonna play along any more

in the real world, i would interview for an oracle position based on oracle skills



r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[Lunatic]

Its not that we're going out of our way to 'jump' on you, it is the thread is about apples and you keep brining up oranges. Its the age old conflict between apples and oranges that keeps rearing its head.

in the real world, i would interview for an oracle position based on oracle skills

This is the problem it seems. This thread is dealing with hypotheticals and you are trying to force the real world into it.

Think of it this way...

You need both apples and oranges to make a good fruitsalad (plus some strawberries, rasberries, watermelon, peaches, and pears - and any other personal favorites), but we're not arguing which fruitsalad we'd prefer, we're arguing how much of a difference the type of apple (the applicant's grammar proficiency) plays in making the fruitsalad.

We're holding the oranges (Oracle ability) and everything else (everything else) constant, which is almost required to discuss the importance of Fuji versus Granny Smith apples.

This isn't a comprehensive analysis of the hiring process; it is a focused discussion of a very narrow section of the process (how important grammar is in the interview process).

As long as one side throws apples and the other oranges, nothing will ever line up.

***************************************
Have a problem with my spelling or grammar? Please refer all complaints to my English teacher:
Ralphy "Me fail English? That's unpossible." Wiggum

 

[r937]

This thread is dealing with hypotheticals and you are trying to force the real world into it."

perhaps i am in the wrong forum, then


r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[Maquis]

Perhaps the real question then is this:

Which salad would you purchase?

Orange Bliss: This salad made only at Joe's Restaurant always contains the freshest most delicious oranges you've ever eaten. The lettuce is always crisp, the almonds are great, but the apples included in the salad are always bitter and dry.

Fruity Delight: The signature salad of Bob's Bistro. Made only with top quality Fuji Apples, fresh walnuts, raisins and well...mediocre oranges that taste like they were picked off some dying orange trees that washed up in the debris from the last hurricane to blow thru Florida.

Of course you would love to purchase a salad made from Bob's apples and Joe's oranges, but this isn't possible. In the real world when you have limited candidates for the job, you have to make a judgement call. Let's say the "yeahz i got oracle" guy is more proficient at Oracle. How much more proficient is he? Is he sooo much better than the other candidates that you can overlook his communicate flaws?

I think we can all agree that his communication issues put him at a disadvantage in the interviewing process. His only hope at landing a good paying job is by being heads and shoulders above the other interviewees at Oracle.



Maq
<insert witty signature here>

 

[pinkgecko]

I think an accent would actually be a benefit I was going to hire a chef to make a fruit salad for me. French accent, preferably.

The only way that grammar or spelling would interfere with hiring a person is if the grammar/spelling was so bad that it would become an issue in and of itself.

If someone is a bit of a redneck, I'll let it slide - their skills speak for themselves. If everyone in your company is extremely detail oriented, which people in this thread have argued that good spelling indicates, I think you lose a bit of the spontaneous innovative nature that can help your company grow. It's all about personality type to me.

If, on the other hand, you have to stop and think about what someone is saying because of poor grammar / pronunciation, or if you have to reread sentences, that will definitely become a problem. Customers and coworkers will have to spend time working on translating instead of the real issue. So to me, it just depends on the degree on their proficiency.

But if two people did appear to have the same skills, I would definitely pick the better speaker. You can't discover everything about someone's skills in an interview.

[blue]Never listen to your customers. They were dumb enough to buy your product, so they have no credibility. - Dogbert[/blue]

 

[SantaMufasa]

Before, I dint know how to spell "Oracle DBA", and now I are one. <grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[mmerlinn]

The use of the 'singular they' is become more and more accepted because the using his or her is inappropriate when gender is unknown, and English does not have a gender-neutral singular personal pronoun

Classic case of mixing up GRAMMATICAL gender and PHYSICAL gender.

For thousands of years English and its antecendents used the singular masculine GRAMMATICAL gender as a catchall for living organisms whose PHYSICAL gender was unknown. Without a COMPLETE rewrite of the English language (and then it would no longer be English) it is IMPOSSIBLE to ALWAYS match GRAMMATICAL gender and PHYSICAL gender.

What is next? Throw out perSON because it IMPLIES excluding females? Or how about MANufacter for the same reason? And then what do you do about woMAN and woMEN which could imply MASCULINITY even though those words apply to females exclusively? And the list goes on and on. Where does it stop? When we are so afraid of offending someone that we finally STOP communicating altogether??

Maybe we ought to condense 'She/He/IT' into some word we could use as a catchall when the physical gender is unknown.


mmerlinn

"Political correctness is the BADGE of a COWARD!"

 

[Welshbird]

We do! Them!

(or in Wenglish we'd say 'Niblo')

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[mmerlinn]

Them? How does one justify using an object (Them) as a replacement for a subject (She/he/it)? Or does one then use the subject (They) as a replacement for an object (Her/him/it)?


mmerlinn

"Political correctness is the BADGE of a COWARD!"

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Maybe we ought to condense 'She/He/IT' into some word we could use as a catchall when the physical gender is unknown.
Usage indicates that 'they' is the catchall subject, 'them' is the catchall object, and 'their' is the catchall pronoun.


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[Welshbird]

We could just use Niblo instead maybe?

As in: "Where has Niblo gone?"

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[Remou]

I nominate ex: ex for the common chromosome, ex for unknown.

Ex did it!
Exes went to the Taj Mahal.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==&gt; This is the problem it seems. This thread is dealing with hypotheticals and you are trying to force the real world into it.
I disagree with that sentiment. I believe this thread IS dealing with a real world issue. We're talking about language use as a criteria use to judge job applicants. I think that's very real world.

i already told you, both those guys would go on to the next level

There is no next level - these are the two who have reached the finals. It's one or the other; your final choice is between these two. Will their language use factor into that decision?

I know that for some people, proper language use is not an issue, and if that's what works for them, then so be it. However, I believe that for most people it is an issue. People judge you by many criteria over and above a skill set: your clothes, your demeanor, your comportment, your appearance, and yes, your language.

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[Welshbird]

But I know what gender my ex is!

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[ESquared]

I agree with mmerlinn's sentiments. People who object to the common practice of using the masculine pronoun when gender is mixed or indeterminate simply don't understand. They make an issue out of something that was nothing—a sort of tempest in a teacup that started a real tempest, but still emanating from the teacup. A mountain made out of a molehill.

I find it unfortunate that so many people have jumped on the bandwagon that it is now socially acceptable to say "they" or "them" when a singular pronoun is required. It's silly. There are alternatives:

• Rephrase the sentence to use a plural subject so the plural pronoun matches.
• Use "he or she."
• Use "one."
• Restate the subject without a pronoun. "I have a friend who blah blah blah and also he this friend blah blah blah."
• Alternate between "he" and "she," although this can become confusing.
• Explain to the reader that in cases of indeterminate or mixed gender you are going to use "he." Or that you are going to use "she." I've seen the latter in printed books. Not to mention that one shouldn't have to explain the former as it was the standard for an awfully long time.

The next time I point out an animal to my son, I am not going to say:

[ul]Oooh, look! An otter! Aren't they cute?[/ul]

I'm going to say

[ul]Isn't he cute?[/ul]

Unless I know for a fact that she is female.

If my use is consistent, my son will understand perfectly that when gender is mixed or indeterminate, one uses the masculine pronoun. He will not think I am calling the otter male. I am not about to teach him improper English simply because it is lobbied for those who don't understand the language.

 

[RodKnowlton]

Why not just use a gender neutral proper noun, like Chris or Pat?

When speaking, you could even use Don (Dawn). B-)

- Rod <--less gender neutral than most names.

 

[Remou]

(Short for Roderickella or Rodneyina? )

 

[chiph]

are you suggesting that chip could not determine the gender of the person who talked to him at the job fair? and in order not to make an "inappropriate" reference, he deliberately chose the third person plural pronoun?

Actually, I did it to obscure their gender. Just in case they happen to google this thread.

Chip H.


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[KenCunningham]

Isn't am Otter an 'it'? Except the ones in Ring Of Bright Water of course.

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[HarleyQuinn]

In the examples posted by ESquared I would interpret them this way (probably incorrectly ).

Oooh, look! An otter! Aren't they cute?

An otter! Yes, otters are cute.

An otter! Isn't he cute?

An otter! Yes, that particular otter is cute.

That would be my take on those two statements. I don't see that a singular pronoun is required in this case as the two statements can be taken to mean two completely different things.

HarleyQuinn
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