Poor grammar limits your job choices

[chiph]

I helped man my company's booth at a local job fair the other week. We had this person come up and after listening to them speak for a few minutes, all I could think was "You may be the best in the world at what you do, but there's no way I'm going to put you in front of a customer"

Their grammar and diction was just horrible.

Chip H.


____________________________________________________________________
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[r937]

just how exact are we really trying to be about "understanding the structure of the language" and demonstrating this understanding via perfect speech?

i mean, come on, even the original poster is guilty...

"We had this person [singular] come up
and after listening to them [plural] speak ..."

"Their [plural] grammar and diction was just horrible."

r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[Maquis]

I'm relatively new to this forum, however I believe grammar and spelling are very important in the workplace. You are referring to someone's speaking ability, however I deal more with writing and spelling abilities. We had a programmer in our department years ago. This guy had no contact with our external customers, but he was writing new programs and he had to document these processes. He was a brilliant programmer but his programs are incredibly hard to understand due to the atrocious spelling and grammar. If it were my decision I'd never hire him.

Also there should be absolutely no excuse for a spelling error on a resume. If someone is too lazy to spellcheck a resume, how lazy will they be at the job?

What if I had instead written the above info like this:

"im new here i think gramar spelling is importent in job u talking to people speaking but i deal with writing we had a programmer here long time ago this guy had no contect with outside customers but he writing new stuff and he had too explan stuff he was smart worker but his stuff was hard to read cuz no speling gramar i never hire again i think speling on resume importent to if someone is lazy to chek speling on resume they lazy on job"

Unfortunately, I see this these kinds of posts all the time in forums. Sometimes the poster is a foreigner who just does not understand English well and in that case it's excusable, (then why do they read and post in English forums?) but most of the time I find that they are simply lazy kids who think grammar does not matter on the internet.

Maq
<insert witty signature here>

 

[Golom]

Some years ago I started to read Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco. As I turned the pages and continued to read I was astonished at the man's erudition; his elegant use of language; the imagery he evoked...

And then, I distinctly remember ... it was on page 104, I suddenly realized

I have absolutely no idea what this book is about!

The issue is not how well or poorly we use language (absurd examples excepted,) but rather it is how well we are able to communicate what we are thinking to others. It is sometimes difficult to make the mental adjustment to poor grammar or annoying speech habits but, if the ideas are interesting, then that all fades into the background fairly quickly. In contrast, a perfectly enunciated and grammatical expression of what is clearly nonsense very quickly looses my interest.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> The issue is not how well or poorly we use language (absurd examples excepted,) but rather it is how well we are able to communicate what we are thinking to others.
On the contrary, the issue is how well or poorly we use language because language is the means by which we communicate.

It's easy to sidestep the issue of delivery with the issue of content, but they're two separate issues. If I had to choose between content and delivery, then I probably would choose content, but when content is not the issue, then delivery become paramount. The above example is not comparison of language use, but rather, a comparison of knowledge.

If I'm looking for an Oracle database administrator and one candidate says, "No sir, I have no knowledge of Oracle." and the other says, "yeah, I gots oracle", then the second candidate is the more likely choice because content will probably, albeit reluctantly, trump delivery. However, if the first candidate were to say, "Yes, I know Oracle", and the second says, "yeah, I gots oracle", then the former is clearly in the driver's seat because content is no longer the issue. It is precisely the use of language that limits the second candidates job prospects.

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[r937]

i would not evaluate oracle skill on the basis of the ability to say "Yes, I know Oracle"



r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[CajunCenturion]

Neither would I, but I do judge people by their ability to understand the issues.

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[Lunatic]

r937

i would not evaluate oracle skill on the basis of the ability to say "Yes, I know Oracle"

Thats the not the point in contention. Both answered the question by stating they had experience in Oracle.

Knowing nothing else, would you think equally of two people whose only difference is how the they said yes?

Would you prefer:
"Yes, I know Oracle"

or would you prefer:
"yeah, I gots oracle"?

That is the question; not whether stating they know Oracle is sufficient to prove they are proficient in Oracle.


***************************************
Have a problem with my spelling or grammar? Please refer all complaints to my English teacher:
Ralphy "Me fail English? That's unpossible." Wiggum

 

[r937]

the medium is not the message, the message is the message

both those guys would merit a second look

their message, no matter how poorly spoken, is that they have oracle skills

i would then ask them a subsequent question, not in english, but in oracle

;-)

r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[KornGeek]

I recently did some work fixing a customer's database. The original programmer clearly did not have any natural talent for spelling. Several of the field name were not only misspelled, but inconsistently spelled between tables. (I won't even get into the design of the database.)

She did produce some incredible reports, but the spelling became an issue for me trying to make fixes. Even if a person doesn't interact with other people directly in their job performance, their spelling and grammar can be a problem later.

(And yes, I realize that I have errors even in this post. I considered going back and correcting them, but irony also has its place in a forum about language.)

 

[SamBones]

The "birfday" comments reminded me of a movie I saw a long time ago. The commedian Jon Lovitz was playing a new teacher in an inner-city school. He was meeting the students and had the following exchange...

Teacher: "So young man, what is your name?"
Student: "My name is anferny."
Teacher: "No, no, no. That's ANTHONY!" (pronouncing it very clearly and powerfully) "That's A, N, T, H, O, N, Y! (spelling it on the board) "That's a name of kings and conquerers!" "ANTHONY!"
Student: (gets up and takes chalk from teacher and goes to the board) "No, that's ANFERNY! A, N, F, E, R, N, Y! ANFERNY!"

I believe things like your name, your appearance, and the way you speak and present yourself leave indellible first impressions. It may only be a Simpson's episode, but I think there's a lot of truth in the episode where Homer changes his name to "Max Power" and suddenly he can do no wrong and doors open up for him.

 

[chiph]

"We had this person [singular] come up
and after listening to them [plural] speak ..."

Guilty as charged, your honor!

Chip H.


____________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please read FAQ222-2244 first

 

[r937]

absolute discharge ;-)



r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[ESquared]

I'm a database analyst/programmer. How well I document code reflects on me as a programmer, and makes a difference in the quality of the final product. How well I communicate with other departments to which I provide service reflects on my skills and ability, and affects how people in those departments trust me (or don't trust me). My ability to get ideas across coherently and intelligently can make the difference between my boss deciding to let me do a project "my way" or whether she enforces upper management's desire to do it "their way."

I could go on and on, but language ability is important. It's no substitute for technical ability, but I can guarantee that coming off well in writing is a serious advantage over someone else who does not do so. And all else being equal, I would lean toward hiring the person with better language skills. I do make allowances for those who are not native English speakers.

 

[CajunCenturion]

&quot;We had this person [singular] come up and after listening to them [plural] speak ...&quot;
&quot;Their [plural] grammar and diction was just horrible.&quot;

The use of the 'singular they' is become more and more accepted because the using his or her is inappropriate when gender is unknown, and English does not have a gender-neutral singular personal pronoun. Using the plural personal pronoun (they) is considered by many the lesser of two evils. The other evil is using the wrong gender-specific singular personal pronoun.

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Good Luck
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[MeGustaXL]

I sat in on an interview with a job applicant whose CV claimed "exceptionally motivated, with outstanding communication skills"

You've guessed it; as soon as I asked the question "In a couple of sentences, tell me what makes you so ambitious" there was a slack-jawed look, a general fidgeting in the chair, and the well-prepared reply:

Errrm...It's like, you know?...err...I just, like, ummm kinda do? See? And the money's good an' all, innit?

Now, I could have put the hesitation down to interview nerves, but I just cannot, and will not, present the Customer with anyone who ends a sentence with "innit?" GRRRRRRRRR!


Chris

When his pin is pulled, Mr Grenade is not our friend - USMC Infantry Manual

 

[r937]

The use of the 'singular they' is become more and more accepted because the using his or her is inappropriate when gender is unknown

are you suggesting that chip could not determine the gender of the person who talked to him at the job fair? and in order not to make an "inappropriate" reference, he deliberately chose the third person plural pronoun?

r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[CajunCenturion]

No, I'm not really suggesting anything. I'm pointing out that the 'singular they' is acceptable by today's standards. Since neither you nor I know the gender of the candidate, then neither of us can be critical of chiph's pronoun use.

Further, I think it's respectable that chiph chose to maintain confidentiality by not revealing anything about the candidate, including gender. Assuming that's what he did, I find his word choice appropriate, and I see no grammatical error.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Lunatic]

KornGeek

The funny part about your post on mispellings, is I'm guilty of that. Mispellings, inconsistnet mispellings, I'm guilty of both. I confused myself, let alone the next person ;p


r937

the medium is not the message, the message is the message

both those guys would merit a second look

their message, no matter how poorly spoken, is that they have oracle skills

i would then ask them a subsequent question, not in english, but in oracle

Play a game with me. We are playing in a very finite world with the only difference between A and B is how they responded to a question regarding their understanding or Oracle.

A says:
"Yes, I know Oracle"

B says:
"yeah, I gots oracle"

Who do you pick?

You can play your games and throw out your what ifs and information you simply must have before you could possible make any decision, but you completely miss the crux of the thread when you do.

The question in this thread is not whether their technical skill is sufficient for the position; it is whether their grammatical skill is sufficient. So I ask again, who do you pick?



***************************************
Have a problem with my spelling or grammar? Please refer all complaints to my English teacher:
Ralphy "Me fail English? That's unpossible." Wiggum

 

[r937]

i'm not gonna play along, sorry, ask me a real-world question

if i have to choose between those two guys based only on their answer to that single one question then you are a PHB and i ain't working here no more



r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[RodKnowlton]

r937

Rather than choosing based on their answers to that one question, suppose it were the first question you asked each of them.

When interviewing candidates, it's natural to keep a sort of "mental score" of how they're doing. Not an empirical measure, just a gut impression, dynamically adjusting as you interact with them.

After just that one question, which applicant would have the higher score?

- Rod


IBM Certified Advanced Technical Expert pSeries and AIX 5L
CompTIA Linux+
CompTIA Security+

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