I am 44, have an Associate's Degree from 1988 in Computer Information Systems that I never really did much with. I returned to school 2 years ago to "update" my degree, and have concentrated on networking classes. My school offers more Novell courses than Microsoft, so I have taken them all, and am pretty close to getting my CNE. Am taking the Microsoft class now, and may try for the new MCSA eventually, or maybe the MCSE. My question is: do I have a chance of finding a job at my age? Even though I have taken the classes, we have gotten very little "hands-on" experience in any of these classes, and really still feel like I don't know anything. I work in a small office and serve as the network administrator, but the exposure I get is pretty minimal. Also, how important is it to have the Bachelor's Degree? I was hoping to just take a few classes and get some certifications and be able to do something with that. To go for the BS degree would take me another couple of years. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm doing all this for nothing.
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Is there hope for "older" students? 2
- Thread starter jelaine
- Start date
jelaine,
My personal opinion is to not go for the Bachelor's Degree. Get the CNE, since you're so close, then get the Microsoft certifications as you go, since MS seems to be taking over Novell in the netowrking arena. There are still alot of Novell networks out there, but MS is the trend.
You are correct in being hesitant about the BS, for the time issue. In my opinion, a drawn-out 2-year course is too long to take to learn something that may well be obsolete in 2 years--if not obsolete, irrelevant. Accelerated courses are the best, but 'hands-on' experience is far, far, better. Then of course you have the Catch-22 of how to get a job without the degrees. But the way to get around this is to take a job at possibly a lower rate, just to get experience, though in your case you will have a certification--even if it's in Novell and the company is an MS shop, the cert shows that you're serious about this field, and that you have a deep understanding of the general idea behind networking. If you work for even 6 months at some company administering or assisting with their network, you will learn more in those 6 months than the 2-year BS program would have taught you, and you've gotten paid something for it.
I don't think the 'age thing' should be an issue--at least not at 44--I'd like to think that's young, being only 2 years from that myself. Companies are willing to pay for what people can do, and I hope I'm not getting too personal here but I'm assuming 2 things: 1. You're a woman. And 2. Have already had children or not planning to. As sexist as you may know companies can get, if fact #1 is True and fact #2 is False, it could be a disadvantage--but if fact #2 is True, this will work to your advantage.
--Jim
My personal opinion is to not go for the Bachelor's Degree. Get the CNE, since you're so close, then get the Microsoft certifications as you go, since MS seems to be taking over Novell in the netowrking arena. There are still alot of Novell networks out there, but MS is the trend.
You are correct in being hesitant about the BS, for the time issue. In my opinion, a drawn-out 2-year course is too long to take to learn something that may well be obsolete in 2 years--if not obsolete, irrelevant. Accelerated courses are the best, but 'hands-on' experience is far, far, better. Then of course you have the Catch-22 of how to get a job without the degrees. But the way to get around this is to take a job at possibly a lower rate, just to get experience, though in your case you will have a certification--even if it's in Novell and the company is an MS shop, the cert shows that you're serious about this field, and that you have a deep understanding of the general idea behind networking. If you work for even 6 months at some company administering or assisting with their network, you will learn more in those 6 months than the 2-year BS program would have taught you, and you've gotten paid something for it.
I don't think the 'age thing' should be an issue--at least not at 44--I'd like to think that's young, being only 2 years from that myself. Companies are willing to pay for what people can do, and I hope I'm not getting too personal here but I'm assuming 2 things: 1. You're a woman. And 2. Have already had children or not planning to. As sexist as you may know companies can get, if fact #1 is True and fact #2 is False, it could be a disadvantage--but if fact #2 is True, this will work to your advantage.
--Jim
If I may throw in my 2 cents. I changed companies at 48. I was concerned about the age thing myself. So I colored my hair to hide the grey and I admit I looked 35. Although I'm male and having kids wasn't an issue, my concern was all the "kids" out there. And in so many fields they don't, seem to appreciate the "older" guys.
Well as it turned out I had a phone call with an offer by the time I got home after the interview. Since then the company has hired two women, almost my age. So the reality is at least here, age doesn't matter.
As far as the education thng. Certification got me a dozen offers in a couple of weeks ( I do also have a 4 year degree though). Some companies also want to see a 4 year degree, and if you want to go any where in management, that may be a requirement ... needing a 4 year degree.
My Opinion is that your age would not be a factor. Being a female, older may be looked at as better, because there is less likely to be a child raising conflict. (Although they can't ask your age and they aren't supposed to use that at all...AND over 40 is supposed to be a "protected" age group... meaning they can't discriminate). Still we all know there are ways to do it anyway. I'd get certified, then go to one of those college degree programs that give credit for life experience and get a 4 year degree on the side,that way. ( One of the guys here at work has a 2 year and is taking a year to get his 4 year on the side... mostly working weekends)
Just some thoughts
Len
Well as it turned out I had a phone call with an offer by the time I got home after the interview. Since then the company has hired two women, almost my age. So the reality is at least here, age doesn't matter.
As far as the education thng. Certification got me a dozen offers in a couple of weeks ( I do also have a 4 year degree though). Some companies also want to see a 4 year degree, and if you want to go any where in management, that may be a requirement ... needing a 4 year degree.
My Opinion is that your age would not be a factor. Being a female, older may be looked at as better, because there is less likely to be a child raising conflict. (Although they can't ask your age and they aren't supposed to use that at all...AND over 40 is supposed to be a "protected" age group... meaning they can't discriminate). Still we all know there are ways to do it anyway. I'd get certified, then go to one of those college degree programs that give credit for life experience and get a 4 year degree on the side,that way. ( One of the guys here at work has a 2 year and is taking a year to get his 4 year on the side... mostly working weekends)
Just some thoughts
Len
I'm sorry certs are good I have a enough of them but nothing replaces what college looks like on a resume it shows more then that you can pass a test come on alot of these cert we can get in less then two weeks of craming I doing it the other way I got the certs and a job and I am working to finsh college
and age does mean a think I know gunthnp
Have you ever woken up and realized you where not alive.
and age does mean a think I know gunthnp
Have you ever woken up and realized you where not alive.
- Thread starter
- #5
I really appreciate you guy's responses. Jim, you are correct--I am a woman, and am finished with my child-raising years. I also am not tied to the area where I live, so I feel that this will be an advantage for me. Actually, my son lives near Dallas, and I have been considering moving to that area, which is like an "IT Mecca".
I would very much like to complete my degree, and currently have an opportunity to share living expenses with someone, which would allow me to reduce my work hours and go to school full-time. However, having taken all the MIS classes first was probably a bad choice on my part. I am certifying in Netware 5.1, and Netware 6 has already come out, with major changes. Another 18 months to 2 years in school, taking the basic classes I need to complete the degree will just serve to put me further behind. So then what?
I suppose I can finish the degree later, I just hate to quit school in case there are no job offers. Plus, if I move, I would be transferring hours to another school, which can be tricky.
Just having a little difficulty making a decision here. Thanks again for all your input.
Elaine
I would very much like to complete my degree, and currently have an opportunity to share living expenses with someone, which would allow me to reduce my work hours and go to school full-time. However, having taken all the MIS classes first was probably a bad choice on my part. I am certifying in Netware 5.1, and Netware 6 has already come out, with major changes. Another 18 months to 2 years in school, taking the basic classes I need to complete the degree will just serve to put me further behind. So then what?
I suppose I can finish the degree later, I just hate to quit school in case there are no job offers. Plus, if I move, I would be transferring hours to another school, which can be tricky.
Just having a little difficulty making a decision here. Thanks again for all your input.
Elaine
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1
- #6
meadandale
Programmer
- Jun 2, 2001
- 356
Certificates are easy to get. That's why they aren't valuable anymore. If I was hiring a new team member I'd concentrate on those that knew the why, not just the what.
As soon as MS or Novell releases a new product, your knowledge becomes obsolete. Computer science fundamentals haven't changed much in the last 3 decades, they have just become more refined. Research papers I've read on TCP/IP written in early 1980 are just as relevant now as they were then. Another example: we knew how to make better micro processors (RISC) back in the 80's but Intel has held such a strangle hold on the market that the superior technology took a back seat to the x86 architecture. Intel's latest IA-64 architecture is based on....you guessed it, a RISC design.
Your comments about trying to keep up with your certificates should answer your question. Certificates are the Sysiphus of the IT world. If I were you I'd concentrate on spending the extra time getting an education, not just more certs. That's why I decided to go back after 10 years and get a MS in Computer Science rather than taking some certification courses. With a couple of breaks and only about 2 years of solid programming experience, I've been promoted to Technical Lead of Software Engineering. I'd never be in this position if I'd gotten a certificate in programming rather than the degree.
Whatever you do, keep up the good work and good luck!!
As soon as MS or Novell releases a new product, your knowledge becomes obsolete. Computer science fundamentals haven't changed much in the last 3 decades, they have just become more refined. Research papers I've read on TCP/IP written in early 1980 are just as relevant now as they were then. Another example: we knew how to make better micro processors (RISC) back in the 80's but Intel has held such a strangle hold on the market that the superior technology took a back seat to the x86 architecture. Intel's latest IA-64 architecture is based on....you guessed it, a RISC design.
Your comments about trying to keep up with your certificates should answer your question. Certificates are the Sysiphus of the IT world. If I were you I'd concentrate on spending the extra time getting an education, not just more certs. That's why I decided to go back after 10 years and get a MS in Computer Science rather than taking some certification courses. With a couple of breaks and only about 2 years of solid programming experience, I've been promoted to Technical Lead of Software Engineering. I'd never be in this position if I'd gotten a certificate in programming rather than the degree.
Whatever you do, keep up the good work and good luck!!
- Thread starter
- #7
Meadandale,
I understand what you are saying, but my problem is, I have already taken all the courses that pertain to this field required for my major. What I lack in order to get my degree are the basic courses like history, literature, fine arts, etc, which will not teach me anything further about information technology. Plus, by the time I finish, what I have learned in the last 2 years will be not only obsolete, but I'm afriad I will have forgotten it for lack of use. I know the degree is worth a lot, but at this point wouldn't focused knowledge and experience be more beneficial?
Thank you for any and all input, and if anyone can point me to information that might be helpful, I would appreciate it very much.
Elaine
I understand what you are saying, but my problem is, I have already taken all the courses that pertain to this field required for my major. What I lack in order to get my degree are the basic courses like history, literature, fine arts, etc, which will not teach me anything further about information technology. Plus, by the time I finish, what I have learned in the last 2 years will be not only obsolete, but I'm afriad I will have forgotten it for lack of use. I know the degree is worth a lot, but at this point wouldn't focused knowledge and experience be more beneficial?
Thank you for any and all input, and if anyone can point me to information that might be helpful, I would appreciate it very much.
Elaine
meadandale
Programmer
- Jun 2, 2001
- 356
Elaine,
I'll forget for a moment that you are a returning student and discuss what I see in many of the students that I've TA'd. The B.S. curriculum at top schools eschews 'liberal arts' curriculum for science centric education. This means that most of the students that I see getting CS degrees have taken few if any classes such as sociology, history, psychology, etc.. Unfortunately, this is reflected in their demeanor. Many are technically proficient but are unable to hold a meaningful conversation or write an email that is grammaticlaly correct or professional in tone.
This is unfortunate as programmers or other techies who cannot communicate concisely in an oral and written fashion are virtually useless. IT is valuable only in that it enables the other areas of the business to run smoothly. It is not an end to itself. This means that to be effective, you need to be well spoken and 'educated' in more than just technology. If you can't have a meaningful discussion with someone on the business side, you won't last long without a Patton of a manager to hide behind.
A good friend of mine works at an investment bank and has commented that almost all of the programmers that they have interviewed had zero interpersonal skills. They may have been supreme tech talents but that means nothing if they can't relate to the business folks (especially when these folks are doing the hiring). Soft skills such as writing and communication as well as having some 'cultural grounding' are just as important as knowing a bit from a byte and a port from a socket.
Now, I don't know how much of this applies to you. Perhaps as a returning student you have enough 'life experience' to make this a non issue. I think that you'd be surprised, however, how valuable these classes are when you get into them and start learning new material. You'll find immediate application in your daily life and especially the business environment.
I know that getting a B.A. in Chemistry was probably better for me in the long run than getting a B.S. for just the reasons that I've mentioned. People that I have worked with have often commented on how well I write and how well spoken that I am (trying to be humble...). I didn't learn that from my science classes and it has gone a long way towards furthering my career.
If at all possible, continue with the school and find a tech job on campus or an intership somewhere that will allow you to start applying what you have learned and give you some valuable experience that you can parley (sp?) into a better job when you've finished your degree. Believe me, there is a glass ceiling for all but the top 1% of tech superstars unless you have a 4 year degree.
Regards,
Charles
I'll forget for a moment that you are a returning student and discuss what I see in many of the students that I've TA'd. The B.S. curriculum at top schools eschews 'liberal arts' curriculum for science centric education. This means that most of the students that I see getting CS degrees have taken few if any classes such as sociology, history, psychology, etc.. Unfortunately, this is reflected in their demeanor. Many are technically proficient but are unable to hold a meaningful conversation or write an email that is grammaticlaly correct or professional in tone.
This is unfortunate as programmers or other techies who cannot communicate concisely in an oral and written fashion are virtually useless. IT is valuable only in that it enables the other areas of the business to run smoothly. It is not an end to itself. This means that to be effective, you need to be well spoken and 'educated' in more than just technology. If you can't have a meaningful discussion with someone on the business side, you won't last long without a Patton of a manager to hide behind.
A good friend of mine works at an investment bank and has commented that almost all of the programmers that they have interviewed had zero interpersonal skills. They may have been supreme tech talents but that means nothing if they can't relate to the business folks (especially when these folks are doing the hiring). Soft skills such as writing and communication as well as having some 'cultural grounding' are just as important as knowing a bit from a byte and a port from a socket.
Now, I don't know how much of this applies to you. Perhaps as a returning student you have enough 'life experience' to make this a non issue. I think that you'd be surprised, however, how valuable these classes are when you get into them and start learning new material. You'll find immediate application in your daily life and especially the business environment.
I know that getting a B.A. in Chemistry was probably better for me in the long run than getting a B.S. for just the reasons that I've mentioned. People that I have worked with have often commented on how well I write and how well spoken that I am (trying to be humble...). I didn't learn that from my science classes and it has gone a long way towards furthering my career.
If at all possible, continue with the school and find a tech job on campus or an intership somewhere that will allow you to start applying what you have learned and give you some valuable experience that you can parley (sp?) into a better job when you've finished your degree. Believe me, there is a glass ceiling for all but the top 1% of tech superstars unless you have a 4 year degree.
Regards,
Charles
I have to say that I received my BS Degree when I was 48. I was working for a Big 5 Accounting company at the time. And I am working on a Master's in Systems Management. About a year and a half ago, I received an offer to work at a private high school. I accepted, and it was the best decision I've made so far.
I went from Tech Engineer to Director of Technology, and because I am good at what I do, especially troubleshooting, I can learn what I don't know on the job. In the last year, I have had the campus re-cabled, setup 5 computer labs, both with existing and new computers, and rebuilt the network. Except for the cabling, I did much of this on the existing budget. Now, I focus on the future.
I get the month of July off, I get two weeks at Christmas, one week at Easter, 4 personal days, and 12 sick days per year, and all the holidays, not just the 5 or 6 that the corporations give you.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that you should finish your degree, then find a place in education, whether it is teaching or leading the technology department. All schools need good technology people, and if you feel that you may be discriminated against in the business world, schools (or any non-profit organization) are a great place to work.
BTW, I have no certifications, but I do have over 12 years experience in desktop support, desktop publishing, and I can answer 90% of the questions that teachers and staff have regarding their computer issues.
I went from Tech Engineer to Director of Technology, and because I am good at what I do, especially troubleshooting, I can learn what I don't know on the job. In the last year, I have had the campus re-cabled, setup 5 computer labs, both with existing and new computers, and rebuilt the network. Except for the cabling, I did much of this on the existing budget. Now, I focus on the future.
I get the month of July off, I get two weeks at Christmas, one week at Easter, 4 personal days, and 12 sick days per year, and all the holidays, not just the 5 or 6 that the corporations give you.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that you should finish your degree, then find a place in education, whether it is teaching or leading the technology department. All schools need good technology people, and if you feel that you may be discriminated against in the business world, schools (or any non-profit organization) are a great place to work.
BTW, I have no certifications, but I do have over 12 years experience in desktop support, desktop publishing, and I can answer 90% of the questions that teachers and staff have regarding their computer issues.
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1
- #10
"do I have a chance of finding a job at my age"
If you know what your doing then you will get hired. You need to be screwing around with all major OS's at home. Buy a cisco 2514 and a 1900 on ebay . Geek out. Buy 4 cheap Pent II's and a KVM. You should be messing with NT/2000/Linux/Novel servers so much that you crash them and spend all night repairing the damage. This is how to get into the IT field if you have no on the job training. Create your own training program. Buy a stupid domain name tonight.Use zone edit to run a webserver on some port other than 80. Set the webserver up on IIS 5.0 , then try and get it running on Redhat with Apache. GEEK OUT MAN!!! Its the only way to be sure.
When I was starting out, I always got hired if I could get a few words in about my home network. IT directors love that.
A few months after you get hired, if your job seems stable, have a bon fire. BURN ALL YOUR STUFF! it will make you feel like a KING!
If you know what your doing then you will get hired. You need to be screwing around with all major OS's at home. Buy a cisco 2514 and a 1900 on ebay . Geek out. Buy 4 cheap Pent II's and a KVM. You should be messing with NT/2000/Linux/Novel servers so much that you crash them and spend all night repairing the damage. This is how to get into the IT field if you have no on the job training. Create your own training program. Buy a stupid domain name tonight.Use zone edit to run a webserver on some port other than 80. Set the webserver up on IIS 5.0 , then try and get it running on Redhat with Apache. GEEK OUT MAN!!! Its the only way to be sure.
When I was starting out, I always got hired if I could get a few words in about my home network. IT directors love that.
A few months after you get hired, if your job seems stable, have a bon fire. BURN ALL YOUR STUFF! it will make you feel like a KING!
It is truly amazing to see postings all over the tech side of the internet with words spelled incorrectly, or terrible use of grammar.
Yes, techhies abound, but it's the personal and interpersonal skills a lot of them lack, which leaves it up to us mid-40 year olds to take care of......
The problem I see is this: The Hiring manager tells the HR person 'Only send me MCSE, A+, MCP, CICSO, CCNE certified people, and I will choose who I want to interview from that pool of people'.(or whatever, you know what I mean).
So, even though we may have tons of years of experience, but no certifications, we are stopped right there, in the HR department. We don't even get to the Hiring manager.
I am betting that is where most of us are having problems, and it's even worse today when so many folks will ONLY accept applications online via the Internet, and the HR program searches our online resume for keywords such as MCP MCSE CCNE CNA, etc. We get stopped there, also.
It seems you have to have some experience, have some certifications, be culturally educated, and be a VERY GOOD B.S.'r to get a job today. And if they sense any kind of phoniness in your B.S., you're h-i-s-t-o-r-y as well.
On my resume', I just say my experiences, and I also say 'I am studying for the MCP MCSE CNA certifications'.
I just started doing this earlier this week, we will see how it goes....
Yes, techhies abound, but it's the personal and interpersonal skills a lot of them lack, which leaves it up to us mid-40 year olds to take care of......
The problem I see is this: The Hiring manager tells the HR person 'Only send me MCSE, A+, MCP, CICSO, CCNE certified people, and I will choose who I want to interview from that pool of people'.(or whatever, you know what I mean).
So, even though we may have tons of years of experience, but no certifications, we are stopped right there, in the HR department. We don't even get to the Hiring manager.
I am betting that is where most of us are having problems, and it's even worse today when so many folks will ONLY accept applications online via the Internet, and the HR program searches our online resume for keywords such as MCP MCSE CCNE CNA, etc. We get stopped there, also.
It seems you have to have some experience, have some certifications, be culturally educated, and be a VERY GOOD B.S.'r to get a job today. And if they sense any kind of phoniness in your B.S., you're h-i-s-t-o-r-y as well.
On my resume', I just say my experiences, and I also say 'I am studying for the MCP MCSE CNA certifications'.
I just started doing this earlier this week, we will see how it goes....
Good show, meadandale ;-).
I am glad to see someone with a sense of perspective in the IT industry. Too much of it is driven by fads, hype, and short-sightedness.
I have to agree with you. Certificates may have their place, but they will never replace solid grounding in the fundamentals. Why do so many computer people hate to the word "theory"? Theory is not just for academic contemplation; it is a necessary precursor to all of this computer/networking stuff we use now. And when you really understand the theory and concepts behind something, the specifics become much easier to learn. Certificates rely on the "cookbook" method of teaching, which means you know how to use a vendor-specific implementation of a technology, and are lost when you try to apply your knowledge elsewhere. We need to stop thinking of ourselves as "Cisco experts", or "Oracle DBAs", or "MCSEs" but as networking experts, RDBMS experts, and programmers.
I may be a little younger than some here (36), but I did get a late start in IT. My varied liberal education only included 2 computer courses, but I ended up studying writing, literature, linguistics, foreign languages, calculus, and teaching. Each of these actually helps me as a programmer, to this day. I may go back for a CS degree, eventually (too busy now), but every day, I spend at least a couple of hours reading about the fundamentals in one area or another. (relational database theory, programming methodology, etc...)
- to jelaine
> history, literature, fine arts, etc, which will not teach me anything further about information technology. Plus, by the time I finish, what I have learned in the last 2 years will be not only obsolete, but I'm afriad I will have forgotten it for lack of use.
Fundamentals never become obsolete. And why would there be lack of use? As haxx77 said, if you don't at least have some kind of part-time or consulting work, then you should be playing around with your own home network as much as possible. You can get extra computers for free, if you just start asking around. Companies are always throwing away perfectly good "obsolete" computers. I got my start in IT simply by going to small businesses and fixing their computers, setting up networks, data conversions, etc... All you have to do is be reasonably sociable, and let people know you are available, and if you do good work, you can survive on referrals alone. (Note the "sociable" part. Every single one of my customers mentioned that I was soooo much easier to talk to than most computer guys they met. That was actually the number one reason I got referrals. In the end, people hire you because they like you. They have no way of judging your job performance until you have worked for them for at least a couple months)
In short, get experience, in any way you can, even if you have to do something for free. That will count for more than a piece of paper.
I will not be the one to tell you whether the degree itself is necessary, but the well-rounded education is critical, however you get that education. I have educated myself far more than I ever learned in university. I would accept a self-taught person with the right drive and attitude far more than the standard IT drone who just thinks the degree qualified him/her for a job.
And finally, if you want to do something useful in computers, be prepared for a lifetime of learning. It should never stop. The computer industry is more demanding than most other careers in this way. -------------------------------------------
"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
I am glad to see someone with a sense of perspective in the IT industry. Too much of it is driven by fads, hype, and short-sightedness.
I have to agree with you. Certificates may have their place, but they will never replace solid grounding in the fundamentals. Why do so many computer people hate to the word "theory"? Theory is not just for academic contemplation; it is a necessary precursor to all of this computer/networking stuff we use now. And when you really understand the theory and concepts behind something, the specifics become much easier to learn. Certificates rely on the "cookbook" method of teaching, which means you know how to use a vendor-specific implementation of a technology, and are lost when you try to apply your knowledge elsewhere. We need to stop thinking of ourselves as "Cisco experts", or "Oracle DBAs", or "MCSEs" but as networking experts, RDBMS experts, and programmers.
I may be a little younger than some here (36), but I did get a late start in IT. My varied liberal education only included 2 computer courses, but I ended up studying writing, literature, linguistics, foreign languages, calculus, and teaching. Each of these actually helps me as a programmer, to this day. I may go back for a CS degree, eventually (too busy now), but every day, I spend at least a couple of hours reading about the fundamentals in one area or another. (relational database theory, programming methodology, etc...)
- to jelaine
> history, literature, fine arts, etc, which will not teach me anything further about information technology. Plus, by the time I finish, what I have learned in the last 2 years will be not only obsolete, but I'm afriad I will have forgotten it for lack of use.
Fundamentals never become obsolete. And why would there be lack of use? As haxx77 said, if you don't at least have some kind of part-time or consulting work, then you should be playing around with your own home network as much as possible. You can get extra computers for free, if you just start asking around. Companies are always throwing away perfectly good "obsolete" computers. I got my start in IT simply by going to small businesses and fixing their computers, setting up networks, data conversions, etc... All you have to do is be reasonably sociable, and let people know you are available, and if you do good work, you can survive on referrals alone. (Note the "sociable" part. Every single one of my customers mentioned that I was soooo much easier to talk to than most computer guys they met. That was actually the number one reason I got referrals. In the end, people hire you because they like you. They have no way of judging your job performance until you have worked for them for at least a couple months)
In short, get experience, in any way you can, even if you have to do something for free. That will count for more than a piece of paper.
I will not be the one to tell you whether the degree itself is necessary, but the well-rounded education is critical, however you get that education. I have educated myself far more than I ever learned in university. I would accept a self-taught person with the right drive and attitude far more than the standard IT drone who just thinks the degree qualified him/her for a job.
And finally, if you want to do something useful in computers, be prepared for a lifetime of learning. It should never stop. The computer industry is more demanding than most other careers in this way. -------------------------------------------
"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
Very well put, Raycamor.
You will never stop learning if you want to stay ahead in IT, you will basically be in school the rest of your life.
It wasn't that way until about 8 years ago, before that, a
COBOL or Assembler Programmer, or MVS or VM person had a job for life, but today, unless you are in one of those companies that utilize those skills, with NO chance of unplugging the mainframe, you/we will be 'in school' forever.
Heck, I remember just 2 years ago 'Powerbuilder' was THE way to go, and today it's almost gone (around here). How many flavors of JAVA are there ? VB was super-hot 2 years ago, now ?
It may sound scary, and it is, but you have to be a well-rounded person, that knows what they are talking about, and have a few items to sell that a company is looking for, and not all companies are looking for the same thing... I hate it.
You will never stop learning if you want to stay ahead in IT, you will basically be in school the rest of your life.
It wasn't that way until about 8 years ago, before that, a
COBOL or Assembler Programmer, or MVS or VM person had a job for life, but today, unless you are in one of those companies that utilize those skills, with NO chance of unplugging the mainframe, you/we will be 'in school' forever.
Heck, I remember just 2 years ago 'Powerbuilder' was THE way to go, and today it's almost gone (around here). How many flavors of JAVA are there ? VB was super-hot 2 years ago, now ?
It may sound scary, and it is, but you have to be a well-rounded person, that knows what they are talking about, and have a few items to sell that a company is looking for, and not all companies are looking for the same thing... I hate it.
Having almost 20 years in the IT racket (i'll be 39 in
December), I tend to agree. The youngsters in this field
are the future, but in reading posts with mis-spelled
words, poor grammar, lack of sentence structure, and
other problems, they could get shut out of a interview
if they turn in a resume which has problems like this
(I've seen more than a few myself like this).
The soft skill component is correct also, but the concept
of theory is over-emphasized in MOST 4 year CS/IS/IT
programs to such a extent that the student doesn't learn
what he or she needs to know in order to get that first
job (I see this quite a bit as well). When a student
graduates knowing nothing about real world program
development and processes, I tend to question the school
they attended.
Also, college degrees aren't what they used to be 20 to
40 years ago (I know, I'm working on a associate's degree
as well). The standards for education in K-12 have been
lowered to such a point, the number of students who need
remedial coursework in college is anywhere from 25 to 40
percent of incoming freshmen (a study done at the Univ
of Calif. system showed that in 2001, a total of 35% of
freshmen needed remedial coursework).
I could go on, but I think you get the point, we need to
be doing a much better job in education and get rid of
the concept of 'instant gratification' in order to
improve the IT field for the future.
December), I tend to agree. The youngsters in this field
are the future, but in reading posts with mis-spelled
words, poor grammar, lack of sentence structure, and
other problems, they could get shut out of a interview
if they turn in a resume which has problems like this
(I've seen more than a few myself like this).
The soft skill component is correct also, but the concept
of theory is over-emphasized in MOST 4 year CS/IS/IT
programs to such a extent that the student doesn't learn
what he or she needs to know in order to get that first
job (I see this quite a bit as well). When a student
graduates knowing nothing about real world program
development and processes, I tend to question the school
they attended.
Also, college degrees aren't what they used to be 20 to
40 years ago (I know, I'm working on a associate's degree
as well). The standards for education in K-12 have been
lowered to such a point, the number of students who need
remedial coursework in college is anywhere from 25 to 40
percent of incoming freshmen (a study done at the Univ
of Calif. system showed that in 2001, a total of 35% of
freshmen needed remedial coursework).
I could go on, but I think you get the point, we need to
be doing a much better job in education and get rid of
the concept of 'instant gratification' in order to
improve the IT field for the future.
What amazes me is the Math kids have to go through now.
I graduated in 1976, all I needed to know was Add, Subtract, Multiply and Divide.
Nobody cared about Geometry, Algebra, Trigonometry or Physics, so I could not do any one of them if you held a gun to my head. All I have added to my own knowledge is Hexadecimal and Octal math.
Today all of the above is mandatory (Geom., Trig., Alg.,etc.) and I really don't see a use for it unless you are going into a Medical field or Engineering field, but not Comp Sci. Please tell me if I am wrong.
I graduated in 1976, all I needed to know was Add, Subtract, Multiply and Divide.
Nobody cared about Geometry, Algebra, Trigonometry or Physics, so I could not do any one of them if you held a gun to my head. All I have added to my own knowledge is Hexadecimal and Octal math.
Today all of the above is mandatory (Geom., Trig., Alg.,etc.) and I really don't see a use for it unless you are going into a Medical field or Engineering field, but not Comp Sci. Please tell me if I am wrong.
Are you telling me you didn't need any geometry or algebra in high school? I know there were times when public education relaxed its grip on various key areas of learning, but I though those two at least were always included.
(And I thought education standards were falling...)
And yes, real math is very important areas for anyone actually wanting to understand what computers are doing, and why. I personally had very mixed performance with math, until I reached Calculus, where it all started to make sense. (I.E., you finally realize what all that other nonsense was about). But my math background has been more useful to me than any of the computer classes I took, because they are now almost completely obsolete (Fortran? Basic?), but the application of mathematics has been an ongoing force for thousands of years, and discoveries made in centuries past are relevant and critical even now.
Again, this goes back to the debate about fundamentals and theory, vs practical hands-on experience. I personally don't think it's an "either-or" thing. You need both to be successful. I appreciate dogbert2's argument about modern CompSci courses, but many times they are lacking in both good theory and practicality. There may be a lot of theory, but it rarely seems to be based on the core fundamentals. For example, how many C.S. grads out there can actually tell you what the relational theory of data really is, and where it comes from? (This is critical for both theoretical and practical aspects of data management).
One can learn theory while being immersed in hands-on experience, but it requires the extra motivation to read books, and ask questions of a general nature, not just specific details. In other words, if you always take the short-sighted approach of just learning enough to do this specific project, with that specific technology, you are not taking edvantage of the intended purpose of the computer: extrapolating specific situations into generalized, repeatable (and recursive) ways of dealing with them. -------------------------------------------
"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
(And I thought education standards were falling...)
And yes, real math is very important areas for anyone actually wanting to understand what computers are doing, and why. I personally had very mixed performance with math, until I reached Calculus, where it all started to make sense. (I.E., you finally realize what all that other nonsense was about). But my math background has been more useful to me than any of the computer classes I took, because they are now almost completely obsolete (Fortran? Basic?), but the application of mathematics has been an ongoing force for thousands of years, and discoveries made in centuries past are relevant and critical even now.
Again, this goes back to the debate about fundamentals and theory, vs practical hands-on experience. I personally don't think it's an "either-or" thing. You need both to be successful. I appreciate dogbert2's argument about modern CompSci courses, but many times they are lacking in both good theory and practicality. There may be a lot of theory, but it rarely seems to be based on the core fundamentals. For example, how many C.S. grads out there can actually tell you what the relational theory of data really is, and where it comes from? (This is critical for both theoretical and practical aspects of data management).
One can learn theory while being immersed in hands-on experience, but it requires the extra motivation to read books, and ask questions of a general nature, not just specific details. In other words, if you always take the short-sighted approach of just learning enough to do this specific project, with that specific technology, you are not taking edvantage of the intended purpose of the computer: extrapolating specific situations into generalized, repeatable (and recursive) ways of dealing with them. -------------------------------------------
"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
Nope, NO math at all. Calculus ? What's that ?
From 8th grade through 12th grade, we were required to take ONE semester of math. Most of us took 'Senior math review', and when it was done, we had ONE test: 50 questions, 10 add, 10 subtract, 10 multiply, 10 divide, 10 algebra. You had to get 40 out of 50 correct, I got 40 out of 50 correct, and did not even attempt the Algebra.
This was from 1972-1976.
This isn't intended to slam the school system here, i'm just stating that was an option back then, and most of us took that option. There were no real 'computers' back then.
Now, I can see perfectly well how math knowledge would come into play with tables, arrays, and the calc logic in C++, etc., and I don't disagree with you on ANY of your points, they are all VERY true, but in the business world, you don't NEED all the math-type stuff you are forced to take today to succeed, but no question, it helps.
What you need it for is if you choose to go down that road, OR if you interview with a company and they decide to geive you a general knowledge test, or, worst yet, having to help a 14 yead old with her homework..... 'Daddy, it isn't fair that I know more about this than you do.....'.
Beyond all that, what kills most folks in my age group is the 30 year old 'kids' that grew up from DOS 1.0, step by step, through all the releases of DOS, and into Windows 1.0,
2.00, 3.11.... my former boss was a 'rich kid', his father and grandfather bought him every new piece of an OS when it came out, from the time he was 8 in 1983. So he had the good fortune of seeing how things propagated from one release to the next, and he understood every line command.....
Few folks can say that, but what that does is, it creates a big education gap between someone like him, who has been on PC's all of his life, and guys like me that have been mainframers for 20 years. He just doesn't understand why when he talks, nobody knows what he is talking about: It's second-nature to him, he grew up on it, I didn't.
I understand Assembler very well, and he doesn't have a clue, and he doesn't need to because we threw out the mainframe a year ago. Then they threw me and a few others out. Easier to hire new than retrain old, they say.
From 8th grade through 12th grade, we were required to take ONE semester of math. Most of us took 'Senior math review', and when it was done, we had ONE test: 50 questions, 10 add, 10 subtract, 10 multiply, 10 divide, 10 algebra. You had to get 40 out of 50 correct, I got 40 out of 50 correct, and did not even attempt the Algebra.
This was from 1972-1976.
This isn't intended to slam the school system here, i'm just stating that was an option back then, and most of us took that option. There were no real 'computers' back then.
Now, I can see perfectly well how math knowledge would come into play with tables, arrays, and the calc logic in C++, etc., and I don't disagree with you on ANY of your points, they are all VERY true, but in the business world, you don't NEED all the math-type stuff you are forced to take today to succeed, but no question, it helps.
What you need it for is if you choose to go down that road, OR if you interview with a company and they decide to geive you a general knowledge test, or, worst yet, having to help a 14 yead old with her homework..... 'Daddy, it isn't fair that I know more about this than you do.....'.
Beyond all that, what kills most folks in my age group is the 30 year old 'kids' that grew up from DOS 1.0, step by step, through all the releases of DOS, and into Windows 1.0,
2.00, 3.11.... my former boss was a 'rich kid', his father and grandfather bought him every new piece of an OS when it came out, from the time he was 8 in 1983. So he had the good fortune of seeing how things propagated from one release to the next, and he understood every line command.....
Few folks can say that, but what that does is, it creates a big education gap between someone like him, who has been on PC's all of his life, and guys like me that have been mainframers for 20 years. He just doesn't understand why when he talks, nobody knows what he is talking about: It's second-nature to him, he grew up on it, I didn't.
I understand Assembler very well, and he doesn't have a clue, and he doesn't need to because we threw out the mainframe a year ago. Then they threw me and a few others out. Easier to hire new than retrain old, they say.
Heh, well, I like the age old phrase, if you think
education is expensive, try ignorance. A lot of us
oldtimers (i'll be 39 in December) who have kept our
skills current (at my own expense, no less), have no
trouble keeping the younger crowd who seem to think
they know it all.
I find that educational standards are not what they
once were for K-12 or college anymore. If we follow
this to the end, each successive generation of students
(generation = 15 to 20 years, depending on who you talk
to), we will have a complete society completely unable
to think for itself. Then what happens, it will all
fall apart (or the divide between the educated people
and the ones who don't have education, or were not
taught what they needed to learn) will be so large
that it will never recover.
I have a friend of mine who is a local professor at
the Univ. here, and she said that if she had to give
her students (she's a IS professor) the grades they
really deserved, she would be fired as a professor.
She taught a graduate level IS course, and the students
did NOTHING but whine about a 5 to 7 page paper that
had to do as part of a project (I wrote more than this
in HIGH SCHOOL). Thus, it leads me to believe that
public education and college isn't worth what it used
to be.
education is expensive, try ignorance. A lot of us
oldtimers (i'll be 39 in December) who have kept our
skills current (at my own expense, no less), have no
trouble keeping the younger crowd who seem to think
they know it all.
I find that educational standards are not what they
once were for K-12 or college anymore. If we follow
this to the end, each successive generation of students
(generation = 15 to 20 years, depending on who you talk
to), we will have a complete society completely unable
to think for itself. Then what happens, it will all
fall apart (or the divide between the educated people
and the ones who don't have education, or were not
taught what they needed to learn) will be so large
that it will never recover.
I have a friend of mine who is a local professor at
the Univ. here, and she said that if she had to give
her students (she's a IS professor) the grades they
really deserved, she would be fired as a professor.
She taught a graduate level IS course, and the students
did NOTHING but whine about a 5 to 7 page paper that
had to do as part of a project (I wrote more than this
in HIGH SCHOOL). Thus, it leads me to believe that
public education and college isn't worth what it used
to be.
My experience is that some folks want to see prospective employees with 4 year degrees, as a 'separation' from the rest of the 'crowd', just as some want to see only folks that are certified in something.
No, that isn't entirely true across the board and across the country, but in a lot of companies it is.
You talk of ignorance in education, and sure, hindsight is 20-20, but I find very few high-school aged kids that really believe what I tell them, let alone what anyone else tells them. I didn't listen 25 years ago, and in some cases it has come back to haunt me.
At the rate i'm going, I am subscribing to the 'It's how you bl*w who you know' in the job market. I personally know folks that have almost NO experience in the IT area, and they get jobs because of who they know, and how they interviewed (aka B.S.'d), whereas I have experience in a lot of different areas, and I have had only a couple of serious interviews in the past 6 weeks, but that's life, I will deal with it, something will turn up.
If you have some experience, some education, some culture, and friends in the right places, you are set. If you don't have all 4 of those, it will just be a bit tougher, but nothing that cannot be overcome with time. How much time is the question.
I can also tell you this: If I had to do it all over again, after high school, I would have gone into the service in a heartbeat, probably the Army. I keep running into folks that are 38-40 years old, and RETIRED. THEN they get real jobs, dual income.... I say the Army because at the time, from what I am told, not so many folks picked the Army versus the other 3, so promotions came easier and quicker. BWDIK ?
If anyone out here is currently working in IT, let me offer you this: Do NOT trust your employer to steer you in a good direction to learn new skills, YOU need to keep VERY abreast of what's warming up, what's going to be hot, and be all over it. Employers are self-serving, and you really need to be looking out for yourself, AND also keep on top of what you think your current employer will need in the future.
I'm thinking wireless WAN/LAN, Palm Pilots, Security....
No, that isn't entirely true across the board and across the country, but in a lot of companies it is.
You talk of ignorance in education, and sure, hindsight is 20-20, but I find very few high-school aged kids that really believe what I tell them, let alone what anyone else tells them. I didn't listen 25 years ago, and in some cases it has come back to haunt me.
At the rate i'm going, I am subscribing to the 'It's how you bl*w who you know' in the job market. I personally know folks that have almost NO experience in the IT area, and they get jobs because of who they know, and how they interviewed (aka B.S.'d), whereas I have experience in a lot of different areas, and I have had only a couple of serious interviews in the past 6 weeks, but that's life, I will deal with it, something will turn up.
If you have some experience, some education, some culture, and friends in the right places, you are set. If you don't have all 4 of those, it will just be a bit tougher, but nothing that cannot be overcome with time. How much time is the question.
I can also tell you this: If I had to do it all over again, after high school, I would have gone into the service in a heartbeat, probably the Army. I keep running into folks that are 38-40 years old, and RETIRED. THEN they get real jobs, dual income.... I say the Army because at the time, from what I am told, not so many folks picked the Army versus the other 3, so promotions came easier and quicker. BWDIK ?
If anyone out here is currently working in IT, let me offer you this: Do NOT trust your employer to steer you in a good direction to learn new skills, YOU need to keep VERY abreast of what's warming up, what's going to be hot, and be all over it. Employers are self-serving, and you really need to be looking out for yourself, AND also keep on top of what you think your current employer will need in the future.
I'm thinking wireless WAN/LAN, Palm Pilots, Security....
The last company that hired me had 4 developers: 2 younger 20-somethings with 4 year CS degrees, and then two of us 30-somethingers who had no CS degree (or certification) at all. Guess which ones ended up doing all the programming? In the end, the other two developers were "re-purposed" as web page designers (mmph...). It really was amazing: here we had two fairly intelligent young people, but they just could not grasp the idea that they would have to take steps to learn new things, in order to actually contribute to the project. We gave them books, and sat with them for tutorials on PHP, Perl, Javascript, etc... and by the time they both left the company a year later, neither one of them had written a line of real code, beyond just installing certain PHP scripts from hotscripts.com, or building web pages in Dreamweaver. We gave them every chance, too.
In one of my discussions with one of them, I came to the realization of what his 4 years in CS accomplished:
- he knew how to set up Windows networks
- he knew how to work with Microsoft Office
- he understood some of the ideas behind programming, even having worked with C++ and Java examples, but had never actually programmed even one real piece of software
- he somehow expected to be handed tasks that were prepared for exactly his abilities, and exactly his way of thinking, so that he wouldn't have to exert the mental energy of actually figuring out how to solve the problem himself.
But... there is evidence that there are bright, thinking, articulate young people out there. Just browse the technical forums, or the newsgroups. You will find that about 95% of the discussion is simplistic drivel, but you will find good thinking, if you look for it. I think there is a "grassroots" education happening on the internet, by those who have the drive to learn on their own. Never before has so much information been available as a simple commodity. With one internet account, you can read everything from classic literature to cutting-edge research papers, and interact with some of the best brains on the planet. I have found that even some of the most "up there" brains are quite willing to engage in discussion in emails, newsgroups, etc... (a good example is ) So, in one sense, while there are the many dunces who complain about a 7-page paper, there are those who will pound out 10 pages a night worth of technical discussion, or even intellectual discourse, and who interact with a wide range of thinking people.
The problem is, the universities are still playing out the last gasps of the 60s revolution, which preached "we can't make anyone feel bad", and "my idea is just as good as yours" to the point where it is impossible to engage in real critical thinking about anything. We are expected to give equal weight to the looniest idea out there, right alongside the core critical thinking built upon centuries of careful examination. Ohh... because logic is the tool of repression--and it might make someone feel bad. This is why an artist can get a 100,000 federal grant to throw pig dung on a wall ("a post-disestablishmentarianist protest of middle-class atavistic neuroses"
, while a nuclear physicist might barely make enough money to have a one-bedroom apartment.
Try this mental exercise: can you remember the last time you had a rational discussion with someone who took an opposing viewpoint to yours, where you both were able to explain your reasons for your belief, without being interrupted, with no emotional outbursts, AND where one of you actually CHANGED HIS/HER IDEAS, as a result of the logical, common-sense arguments in the discussion? This is what educated people used to do. Now, people tend to just make assertions, without feeling the need to back them up with fact or logic, and resort to name-calling, or ad hominem arguments, and finally ending with some variation of "... well, that's just how I feel." There is nowhere to go in a discussion like that.
This is why I say to anyone: if you want to be truly educated these days, you have to do it yourself. Read, and search for the central ideas in anything, always pursuing that idea to the next book, or the next "more central" idea. Find people who don't mind discussing ideas. You will find your ideas changing, which is a scary thing, and sometimes you will go down one road and find you have to backtrack, and go down another, but that is the only way to really learn.
And yes, keep an eye on wireless ;-). -------------------------------------------
"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
In one of my discussions with one of them, I came to the realization of what his 4 years in CS accomplished:
- he knew how to set up Windows networks
- he knew how to work with Microsoft Office
- he understood some of the ideas behind programming, even having worked with C++ and Java examples, but had never actually programmed even one real piece of software
- he somehow expected to be handed tasks that were prepared for exactly his abilities, and exactly his way of thinking, so that he wouldn't have to exert the mental energy of actually figuring out how to solve the problem himself.
But... there is evidence that there are bright, thinking, articulate young people out there. Just browse the technical forums, or the newsgroups. You will find that about 95% of the discussion is simplistic drivel, but you will find good thinking, if you look for it. I think there is a "grassroots" education happening on the internet, by those who have the drive to learn on their own. Never before has so much information been available as a simple commodity. With one internet account, you can read everything from classic literature to cutting-edge research papers, and interact with some of the best brains on the planet. I have found that even some of the most "up there" brains are quite willing to engage in discussion in emails, newsgroups, etc... (a good example is ) So, in one sense, while there are the many dunces who complain about a 7-page paper, there are those who will pound out 10 pages a night worth of technical discussion, or even intellectual discourse, and who interact with a wide range of thinking people.
The problem is, the universities are still playing out the last gasps of the 60s revolution, which preached "we can't make anyone feel bad", and "my idea is just as good as yours" to the point where it is impossible to engage in real critical thinking about anything. We are expected to give equal weight to the looniest idea out there, right alongside the core critical thinking built upon centuries of careful examination. Ohh... because logic is the tool of repression--and it might make someone feel bad. This is why an artist can get a 100,000 federal grant to throw pig dung on a wall ("a post-disestablishmentarianist protest of middle-class atavistic neuroses"
, while a nuclear physicist might barely make enough money to have a one-bedroom apartment. Try this mental exercise: can you remember the last time you had a rational discussion with someone who took an opposing viewpoint to yours, where you both were able to explain your reasons for your belief, without being interrupted, with no emotional outbursts, AND where one of you actually CHANGED HIS/HER IDEAS, as a result of the logical, common-sense arguments in the discussion? This is what educated people used to do. Now, people tend to just make assertions, without feeling the need to back them up with fact or logic, and resort to name-calling, or ad hominem arguments, and finally ending with some variation of "... well, that's just how I feel." There is nowhere to go in a discussion like that.
This is why I say to anyone: if you want to be truly educated these days, you have to do it yourself. Read, and search for the central ideas in anything, always pursuing that idea to the next book, or the next "more central" idea. Find people who don't mind discussing ideas. You will find your ideas changing, which is a scary thing, and sometimes you will go down one road and find you have to backtrack, and go down another, but that is the only way to really learn.
And yes, keep an eye on wireless ;-). -------------------------------------------
"Now, this might cause some discomfort..."
(
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