Hypothetical question....re: careers and money 7

[BeckahC]

This is just a hypothetical question that came up in a discussion I had with a friend the other day and I was curious enough to want to get more opinions:

Let's say you're a programmer who is not paid terribly well (under 30K/yr) but you love what you do and where you work, etc.

Then someone comes to you with the possibility of a position elsewhere making something like twice what you are making, but doing something else, something you are capable of doing but may or may not enjoy as much.

I was kind of stumped at this question, as I had never really thought about it. On the one hand - I'm a "starving programmer" on the other I'd be a successful "not a programmer" but able to pay bills and such... I'm happy where I am, but I had to say I'd be tempted....

How about any of you out there? How do you think you might respond? BeckahC

 

[BeckahC]

mcconmw,
I understand what you're saying, and many people have told me the same thing... What I really want to try to do is to find a college that will accept life experience towards the requirements. Obviously, I do not want to go back to the school that I was attending, but I do want to choose a school to go back to that I will get a lot out of while I work towards my degree. I'm definitely not saying that I won't go for my degree... just that it may have to wait a bit. In the mean time, where I am now, once you are working there they do not usually discriminate on the basis of degrees or certificates... they do look at what you do and how you do it. I've known and worked for Managers that were working towards their Associates Degree - after having been Management for awhile... I do see it as an obstacle for going elsewhere for a position though.

Obviously, this was something I had to consider while considering my friend's hypothetical question... BeckahC

 

[elizabeth]

Beckah, I have never heard of any accredited institution that grants credits for technical courses based on life experience or OTJ training. But have you looked into getting your degree through an on-line/distance learning institution? There are so many choices, and most are much less expensive than attending in person, plus no commute. ;-)

Credientials such as degrees or certifications are not usually not cheap or easy to acquire. Most of us get them only because they are way cheaper and easier than finding a job without them, and then proving ourselves into promotions that we were already qualified for.

 

[mcconmw]

Be careful with on-line colleges. A lot of them are not accredited which means that if you wanted to further your degree at an accredited school in the future you would not be able to transfer credit. Some are accredited though.

 

[elizabeth]

Good point, mcconmw, and of course if you have the choice it never hurts to get a degree from a "name" college" - one that most people reading your resume will have heard of. The more expensive colleges may offer scholarships, and you can always try for grants and loans and even income tax credits. I hear that your current employer has little or no training benefits as well as low pay, but it's worth checking out.

 

[BeckahC]

I will definitely check this out. I do want to further my career, but I also want to be able to have time for family...

As far as tuition reinbursement goes, I get 2thirds back for every class towards a degree that I get a C or better in... I tended to run an A - B+ average (varying between 3.4 - 3.8) So that wasn't the problem... trick is getting the $$ up front... but that's another story...

I would like to go back to school sometime, but when I do it, I want to get something from it besides a piece of paper... Sure, the piece of paper helps get a job, but I would rather wait until I find the right place to go and the right classes for me to take so I can get something out of it while I work towards the paper...

I'm not sure that they grant credits for technical classes just from life experience... but I do know of some places that if you have more than a certain amount of training/experience they will allow you to take a test to earn the credits without taking the class. Also, sometimes they allow life experience to account for elective credits, too.

Of course, on the accredited schools.... I went to Learning Tree, which is registered and accreditted by the ACE and I should have gotten about 4-6 credits for my completion of the classes... the college I attended, even with the transcript from the ACE would not accept them... BeckahC

 

[elizabeth]

Yeah, transfer credits a whole other subject. One college will often not accept credits from another. And if they do, they will often be elective, as they don't match up exactly with a given course that is a requirement at that college. The best way to handle transfer credits is to ask the school you want to eventually transfer credits to, what will they count and towards what from the school you want to start at. I've done a lot of that, having attended 4 colleges. Another issue about classes is that normally any college requires you to take at least half (often more) of your classes from them. They won't accept more than about half of their credits from a combination of transfer and tests.

Most colleges allow some testing-out, but often not in your major subject. If they are, they are likely to be intro-level only. The reason is that they often have no standardized test for that subject. Which mean they would have to get someone to generate a special test just for you (they don't want to use a test you may already have obtained a copy of), give it to you, stand by to anwser quetions during the test, then correct/grade it. Quite the hassle administratively, so you can see they have little incentive to offer this servive. After all, they are in the business of teaching, they are not a testing center. A degree is not similar to a Certificate, where the point is to pass a test. The "college experience" is supposed ;-) to teach life skills as well, such as finding your way through an administrative maze, figuring out how to meet your goals despite competion and schedule problems, dealing with unfair or erratic workload demands, figuring out what your teacher (boss) really wants and how to produce it in the least possible time, etc, etc.

 

[BeckahC]

Yes.. I had one professor my last semester at the Community College who was working towards his Doctorate in Computer Science at an Ivy League school... so of course if we (all of us night school students with full time jobs, if not careers) had a workload less than his we should be thankful, and all the extra work would prepare us for when we went for our Bachelor's, Master's, etc.... <> In the mean time he read the text verbatim and marked answers wrong if they were not phrased precisely the same as the book.... That I do not have time or patience for...

If the work is productive, and/or teaching me something valuable then of course, it comes with going to school... the whole class failed this professor's first test and what did he say.... &quot;You all must not have been paying attention!&quot; This, amongst other things, made me fed up with school... I would go back, but only if I were sure to learn something and not be wasting my $$$ and time. Education is worth both, but what I was receiving was not, in my opinion, an education.

My husband found his college experience very much worth it... he has 1 more class to go (at night) before he gets his BS in Computer Engineering. However, he took the bulk of his schooling during the day as a full time student, while I worked during the day and schooled at night from the very start... from what I've heard and experienced the night professors - usually adjuncts are not necessarily as qualified as the full time professors who teach during the day...

One of the things about Learning Tree is that all of their instructors are experienced consultants in their field(s) and can come up with real-life applications for the material they teach... BeckahC

 

[jasek78]

I'd agree with you about the community college classes not being the best way to do it. Community colleges just don't have the resources a University does. The budgets that determine the instructors and equipment purchases are worlds apart. Transferring credits is a big issue, one dealt easiest by checking which Universities the community college has 'accreditation' agreements (I can't remember the term off the top of my head...) with.

I'm trying right now to find some freelance work so I can take some training courses myself. I'm planning on getting my BS in CS as soon as I can round up enough $$$ to get me started.

Best of luck to you, BeckahC

jason

 

[BeckahC]

Thanks Jasek78!
I've noticed that the programs that offer the equivalent credits also do not mention that they may or may not be accepted, depending on where you bring the credits...

I would prefer to wait and get a degree that I know means something, rather than getting a piece of paper that just looks pretty to prospective employers... If that means I'm &quot;stuck&quot; where I am now... I guess there are worse things than getting underpaid... at least I know my position is safe and I am appreciated for my skills and abilities.

I'm curious Jasek78... how do you think you would respond to the hypothetical question my friend posed to me? Would you take the higher paying job in a position doing something else? Or would you stay in the position where you are secure and know you enjoy what you are doing? BeckahC

 

[jasek78]

Well, I'd have to say that at this point in my life, I would probably take the job.

(I would use the extra money to fund some training and/or further education, and seek out a better job, if I really didn't like what I ended up doing.)

I prefer 'smaller' environments that I don't have to deal with the subleties of 'office politics' and where my skills and knowledge are appreciated and used.

There are a lot of intangibles that I don't know about, though. Location, benefits (including training), vacation, responsibilities, ability to move up, and general perks are part of the larger picture.
In general, I think that enjoying what you do, and being comfortable where you spend most of your time are the most important things.

jason

 

[BeckahC]

Hmmm... That's a really good answer...

I can't really be sure - I mean my friend was talking about a position with a large company with all the perks... but that might be because that's the type of company this friend likes to work for...

I could definitely use the money as well... but would prefer to get it in my current environment (not going to happen... there are people working here 20 years that have not doubled their income from when they started! ;-)) Otherwise... I guess I'd have to measure the pros and cons and hope I'd choose a place where I'd be happy and have $$$ (If that really exists, I haven't found it yet! )
BeckahC

 

[elizabeth]

BeckahC, sounds as though in 'talking' this through you see you have already made the choice, maybe subconciously, that you value your freedom to do things the way you like, and being treated with respect and consideration, more than you value money. Congratulations!

And once your husband finishes his degree, he may begin making enough money that you don't have to sacrifice so much to stay in your current position. I believe there are relatively few of us who enjoy their work place and coworkers as much as you.

 

[BeckahC]

I think you're right Elizabeth! I didn't even realize I made the decision until just now after reading your post...

With all the tiny faults in this place I do feel as though this place is my &quot;home away from home&quot; to be honest, I don't really think I could leave it... Though I do wish I could bring in more money... maybe if the position were truely comparable I might consider it more... Or if certain people were to leave and things became more cold... maybe I might go... after all- it seems to me that it's the people who make the company, not the other way 'round...

I even considered trying to get another position for more and then trying to get a counter offer from my current employers... I'd settle for a little raise - I'd never dream of telling them I'd stay anyway... ;-) BeckahC

 

[nontrad]

Taking the higher paying job BUT use the additional money to......

1) MAx out any 401K and IRA for retirement (the sooner you start, the better off you'll be later on).

2) Pay off ALL debts including credit card balance, and car. You'd be surprised how low your expenses are when you no longer have these.

3) Put a big chunk away to first build up savings equal to 6 months of your salary - NOT STOCKS! but in easily tapped savings accounts/CDs, even though the interest will be low.

4) If applicable, put another big chunck in a college fund for yourself and/or kids. Many states have a certain portion of this as tax deductible!

5) Pay off the house! It's a real money drainer. instead of getting a 15 year loan, get a 30 year loan and make double payments with a note saying that the second payment goes strictly towards the principal of the loan. This way, if there is ever a time when you can't make double payments, you have the option to &quot;pull back&quot; to regular payments. Your house will be paid off in MUCH less that 15 years.

6) And last, use anything else to buy items that are nondepreciable assets.

Once the stress of finances are off your back, you wil not only have LESS stress at work but you may also develop the freedom to then quit and go (back) to college, work less hours, etc. If you are on a &quot;hampster wheel&quot;&quot; of low pay, you will never achieve this.

 

[BeckahC]

nontrad,
This sounds great!
1) I do contribute to a 401K plan where I work... it's not a lot, but I'm only 24, figure once I'm making more, I'll save more too.
2) I don't remember a time without debt! I still owe on my car and it's been having problems lately! credit cards are how we pay for most thingas, because we spend all our money trying to pay them off!
3) We do have some $$ put away, but not nearly enough to be comfy. This is a terrific idea!
4) Would like to have enough $$ to start having kids! ;-)
5)Would like to buy a house, we're stuck renting right now, and even this place is way too small!
6) Moving last year was way more expensive than we could have ever predicted! And now we plan to get a bigger apartment this year!

You posed some very interesting points here! I hope if this does become reality that I choose the right way to go and that it does work out... thank you for your help! BeckahC

 

[nontrad]

Besides a 401K, consider starting a Roth IRA account even if it's only $500/year. Think you don't have the money? Just total up how much money you spend in a week at the soda and snack machines.

If/when you decide to have kids, I would suggest you have your finances/work structured so, if you want, one parent can stay home and take care of the kid(s). It's a LOT less stress in the marriage if you can do this without creating a financial strain.

Yes, it's possible to get out of debt. Just learn to make smart choices such as your job choice, investing(maybe &quot;investing&quot; in education would create the best dividends), and in what you buy and spend money on (do you really NEED to buy/lease a new car with every option or that Latte Grande?).

 

[BeckahC]

Ahh nontrad, that's a very good point! I learned to budget before I was married, but now, setting up house and keeping track of two persons' worth of finances is quite a lot more... especially when I married a man who was used to spending about 3x as much as I was per week and had no major debt...while I spent less than he did and brought a ton of debt into the mix... We're just still adjusting... 2/5 will be our 6 month wedding anniversary! I'm pretty sure by the end of year 1 we should have everything worked out! ;-)

To be honest... I don't think I would be very happy being a stay at home mom... maybe taking a year at home wouldn't be so bad... but I think I'd just go all stir crazy if I had to be home all day everyday... I really admire those who can manage it, but I really need to work, at least some of the time. BeckahC

 

[nontrad]

Yes, I was not cut out to be a stay-at-home mom either. But I found out that when my kids reached school age, there were a LOT of activities that they could not participate in if I worked. Plus, we had GREAT difficulty finding adequate child care.

Years ago, I was making 30K. I figured out that after taxes, lunches/gas/clothes associated with work, &quot;convenience&quot; foods because I was too tired to fix meals, that my sitter got more of my paycheck every week than I did - and she only got $125!

Yes, working would be great but what will your kids deserve?

 

[BeckahC]

I suppose I'll have to work things through when the time comes... If it does turn out to be less expensive for me to stay home, I will... I might do some work from home or maybe get a part-timr position once the kids get older, though.... But we also depend on the benefits - medical and dental - from my job... if I stayed home, could we afford the medical and dental care that all children should have?

Also, Daycare now is much like classes for little people... they learn to interact well with others, form friendships and other social skills that can be difficult to pick up on if they start out in school later than other children...

For example -

I have a cousin who's mom stayed home for the first year and then went back to work. She is in daycare and enjoys &quot;school&quot; a great deal.... She has friends and has learned a lot, like sharing and patience and not being very shy when meeting new people.

I have a friend who is a stay at home mom and her daughter is very close in age to my cousin. She doesn't get the concept of sharing, or patience and attaches herself to her mother whenever people are in the room... Her speech and manorisms are much less advanced - normal for her age, but less advanced just the same...

My cousin speaks in complete sentences, uses please and thank you... sings songs and plays games, both by herself and with others... she is actually more advanced for her age... she gets just as much attention and care, but her parents are satisfied with their lives as well as with being parents.

My friend likes being a stay at home mom, but I think sometimes she wishes she could get out of the house more without her baby and see her friends and have her own life, not just be &quot;mom&quot; day in and day out...

I just think that staying at home is a choice that should be made by each individual. There's a lot to consider, too. BeckahC

 

[goBoating]

This might seem a little off of the proffessional development topic, but, a poorly chosen approach to family life can be as damaging, or more, to a professional pursuit than just about anything you can do outside of the home.

Lot's of nice raionalizations above ..... I don't think you can take two individual children, do a compare and contrast and get a good picture of how one should run a family. There is such huge variation from one child to the next, even in the same family, that a two child sample is far to small to be significant.

The entire thing is a big trade off one way or the other.

Children raised in the home by a parent are much less likely to be diagnosed with attention deficit, hyperactivity, or learning disorders in elementary school. If those children in day care are that well adjusted, I wouldn't think they would be more prone to such problems. They get far fewer ear infections and... and.... You have a browser, go look for AMA or pediatrics or...... Make sure you include those sleepless nights walking or rocking a sick baby in your value estimations of working and staying home. I suspect that while in a day care, a child is required to adhere to a minimum standard of behavior. Therefore, a base level of socialization is usually achieved. But, does the day care situation take the maturation past that or is it just a farm after that point. (obvously, depends on the day care) So, a working parent should make a special effort to spend hours of real quality time with a child each day. Not just fixing dinner, but real interaction. .... tough to do......I'm a working parent. Also, the exposure to other children can be delivered without putting a child in day care all day every day.
The most important factor in whether or not a child reads when they enter school is whether or not they were read to at home. You have a browser, go look....

Children from homes that really make enough money to offset the cost of day care and really provide for college or some other significant expense have a monetary advantage. Finances are a huge pressure with kids. And, if Mom and Dad are both really poorly suited to deal with a child in the home, then the child might be better cared for in a day care and the family might be more financially stable. I would argue that both parents would have to make in excess of $50k / yr each to make the money worth it. My wife and I looked at this and figured that the financial accouting break even point was a little above $30k. We live in the south eastern US. And that was with a lot of the life complications associated with working unaccounted for. The costs of working are huge until the kids are in all day school, 8:00 to 3:30 anyway.

So, choose your priorities and pursue them. Just be honest with yourself about costs of either option.

Damn!, being a parent is difficult, and wonderful .


'hope this helps

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