How much am I worth?? 8

[TechieTony]

Good Morning All,

I am running into a personal quandry at work and could use some advice from some of my IT brethren.

I work at a midsized corporation, about 110 employees with about 90 supported pc's over 6 states. I am the only person in the IT dept making me the IT dept. This is my first job out of college and I live in Denver Colorado. I earned my degree in MIS/minor SCSI and I currently have my A+ and N+ with 2 years of Cisco Networking at junior college while getting my MIS. I hopefully will be getting my CCNA by August. I have been with the company for about 2 years now and I feel as though I am an asset to the company at this point.

I love my job, ive been you average geek since 15 yrs old and im 25 now. The problem I have is with my pay. I went out to eat with a buddy of mine who is also into IT and he remarked on how the pay was really good.... so I asked him what he was making. Now my buddy has a technical degree with no certs and is making around 48,000 a year which shocked me because I make around 36,000 a year. So I went to salary.com calculator and the base pay for IT im my area is about 55,000 a year which makes me think im getting shafted here.

Now im not big into pay and im not a greedy man by any means but I just dont feel like im getting my fair worth. So basically I want to ask for a raise but I dont know what exactly should I be asking for, my boss is a cheap skate and this company makes millions......

Any responses are greatly appreciated...

Antony

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...tor&hdJobCategory=IT03&hdNarrowDesc=IT -- All

 

[ousoonerjoe]

Therefore, your best way to boost your salary is "job jumping".

SantaMufasa is right about this. In 2 years and 3 jobs I have increased my pay by almost $20,000. By shear accident too... the last 3 places I have worked for were bought out, stripped down and laid everyone off.

However, there is a major downfall to this as you can imagine. Job hopping is expected right at first. After 10+ years of service in the industry, HR does not like to see short terms on resumes(I know, my HR Manager wife likes to remind me). You get too many 2 years or less and HR won't even call you back. Companies want devoted employees that aren't going to jump ship. They invest a lot of money into you and expect a lot of money out of you in return. They have to fill out an ROI when they create your position.

Recruiters are an excellent source for finding a new job with higher pay. They typically get paid between 5-20% of your first year's salary. It is in their best interest to get you as much money as they can from the prospective employer(s). They also have many job openings that are not advertised or posted. And don't pick just one. Get several of them working on finding you a position you like with respectable pay AND benefits. I have 7 different agencies that call me on a regular basis with job openings. I also have a lot of friends in IT that need jobs, and a lot of recruiters will pay you a "finder's fee" of $100-$500 if they place one of your referrals.


Oh and with all the certs you have PLUS a degree, you can easily make $60k a year.

"If I were to wake up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised than I am right now.

 

[shoalcreek]

As a general rule, don't bother with recruiters. They don't work for you. They don't care about you.

They are simply people who couldn't make it in a real HR job. If someone did a study on the average IQ of people various jobs, they would definitely find that recruiters have very low ones. Doctors and engineers would probably rate the highest.

If they need you badly enough, they will find your resume out there on one of the many job sites--Dice, Monster, Careerbuilder, Comptuerwork, Hotjobs. Dice seems to be the place they go most, based on some of the unsolicited calls I've gotten over the years.

Most employers see recruiters as a last resort when it comes to hiring. They certainly don't want to pay a fee to find someone. It's like a hiring a dating service because you can't find a date on your own. What kind of people use dating services?

It isn't enough to say that you want to leave a job. Is it really that bad anyway? You have to find something that you want to go to. Get out there and find places where you would like to work. You could even just do some cold-calling.

Imagine if you got into your car and said: " I want to leave here." Well, the car isn't going to go anywhere until you find a place you want to go to.

 

[flapeyre]

As a general rule, don't bother with recruiters. They don't work for you. They don't care about you.

I disagree. The best job I ever had (here for 12+ years), I got through an agency.

The worst job I ever had, I got through an Internet ad (I eas there all of two minths before I went back to my current job). Never should have left in the first place.

Remember, all generalizations are false .

Nullum gratuitum prandium.
--Sleipinir214

 

[NickFerrar]

Most employers see recruiters as a last resort when it comes to hiring. They certainly don't want to pay a fee to find someone.

I disagree, at least for medium to large firms. It just takes up too much HR department time if you try and do it in-house.

I don't disagree most recruiting firms offer a poor service though (both for employers and employees).

 

[kmcferrin]

Not to mention that many companies only need staff on a temporary basis. Or they like the "try before you buy" staffing model. There are many, many reasons that larger companies go though staffing firms.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[DTSMAN]

Here in Houston, TX it seems that way more than half of the IT positions on Monster.com are recruiter\placement agencies. And some of the other job boards as well.

Bo

Remember,
If the women don't find you handsome,
they should at least find you handy.
(Red Green)

http://www.redgreen.com

 

[kmcferrin]

I think the same can be said for most larger cities. So refusing to deal with a recruiting/staffing or consulting firm can seriously limit your opportunities. Especially if the largest companies don't hire directly (many don't).

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[shoalcreek]

Techietony has told us all that she or he already has a job. When one already has a job, one should certainly not act out of a poverty mentality. At least in my opinion, when one already is employed, one should focus on quality jobs. And in my opinion, quality is a whole lot more than just salary. More importantly, a poverty mentality also makes you less attractive to employers and to other people who might help you.

You are more likely to get a quality job with the attitude: "I'm just testing the waters. You look like you may be a good fit." You are less likely to get a good one with the attitude: "I need a job now."

In my experience, a job isn't quality if it is through an agency. Going from a permanent job to a try-before-you-buy situation is just plain foolish.

Techietony has not told us what he is looking for in a job, nor has he told us what is important to him. Is he looking for just a job or is he looking for a quality job?

 

[flapeyre]

You are more likely to get a quality job with the attitude: "I'm just testing the waters. You look like you may be a good fit." You are less likely to get a good one with the attitude: "I need a job now."

"I'm just testing the waters" definitely is a red flag for the employer. If I were doing the hiring, that would be an automatic disqualifier. From the employer's point of view, the interviewee just told him he's not planning to stick around.

In my experience, a job isn't quality if it is through an agency. Going from a permanent job to a try-before-you-buy situation is just plain foolish.

"Agency" does not imply "temporary". Ever hear of fee-paid agencies? The employee pays nothing; the employer pays the cost to the agency. In return, they expect to get a good fit.

What's "plain foolish" is thinking you know more about job placement, having done it occasionally for yourself, than a professional who places a hundred or more candidates a year.

Nullum gratuitum prandium.
--Sleipinir214

 

[Stella740pl]

shoalcreek,

In thread654-1465797, you mention that you make about $42,000, $12,000 up from 1998. I am not sure what you do, but maybe you should start considering using services of a recruiter or a placement agency?

Mind you, they care about you much more than a permanent HR person. A recruiter/agency placing you will get a commission of about your one-month salary; a HR person will get their regular salary whether they hire you or not.

(Just for fun, estimate what a recruiter who places at least 2-3 people a month with as high salary as you are making now can earn a year? What if they place a 100 people a year at an average of $75,000? Now compare this with a salary of a regular HR worker. Do you think they would want to "make it in a real HR job"?)

Let's just say, for a similar period of time, they helped me much more than you were able to help yourself.

 

[shoalcreek]

but maybe you should start considering using services of a recruiter or a placement agency?

The assumption here is that I have never done this. You're being extremely presumptuous. Since you are monitoring my posts on here, I suggest you read all of them. Some of them are in this thread.

I have wasted hours and hours with them. They have proven themselves to be pretty worthless time and time again. I have found better stuff on my own.

 

[Stella740pl]

I don't monitor your posts (and you are being extremely presumptuous at this one, and a bit arrogant, too). The fact that I can remember some of the recent posts and find them (not a rocket science), doesn't mean that I monitor your activity - or that I am going to go and re-read all of them. Sorry, I really have other things to do.

Yes, I remeber you said that you used some of their services and have some negative experience - that doesn't mean that you can generalize all of them as bad and totally useless. They would all perish long ago if they really were all that useless.

After all, several more people here pointed out that they found good jobs through agencies (I did, several of them); and that avoiding them you are limiting yourself from a huge chunk of available jobs, since a good half of all ads are posted by recruiters/agencies, and some of the firms are not hiring directly at all; and that finding a job through agency/recruiter doesn't necessarily mean "temp" or "temp to hire", a lot of them are full time jobs with benefits.

As for the better stuff you found on your own, the "quality jobs"... Well, maybe it is indeed better for you. I don't know what you do.

 

[KornGeek]

I have wasted hours and hours with them. They have proven themselves to be pretty worthless time and time again. I have found better stuff on my own.

Taking your advice and reading through your threads, I notice a trend.

You regret not behaving maliciously when leaving a job.
You recommend falsifying qualifications.
You suggest manipulation is a better career path than skill, talent, and hard work.
You ridicule your users.
You attempt to force your opinions on your users.
You complain about your users.
You see discrimination with minimal supporting evidence.
You jump to conclusions about recruiters in general based off of some bad experiences with some (for irony, see above point).
You display a generally negative outlook and attitude.

Perhaps the issue isn't just the recruiters. You might be contributing as well.

You also post some very good advice and show a lot of intelligence. You seem to have a lot of knowledge to share, but often times what you say falls second to how you say it. The way you carry yourself could make it very easy to dismiss your viewpoints (which I believe would be a mistake).

 

[flapeyre]

The assumption here is that I have never done this. You're being extremely presumptuous.

No one said you have "never done this." However, I did say that compared to your limited experience, a recruiter hast a vastly superior skill set when it comes to placement matching. And, whether you think that is true or not, does not make it so. You do realize that the recruiters can't stay in business if they do not satisfy their client's needs?

Perhaps the issue isn't just the recruiters. You might be contributing as well.

And I agree 100% with that. Shoalcreek, perhaps it is your negative vibes coming across to the recruiters you've been in contact with that is partially to blame for your bad experiences with them. I suggest you consider that.

You know, most of the time, nice guys really do finish first (the saying to the contrary notwithstanding).

Nullum gratuitum prandium.
--Sleipinir214

 

[shoalcreek]

No one said you have "never done this." However, I did say that compared to your limited experience, a recruiter hast a vastly superior skill set when it comes to placement matching. And, whether you think that is true or not, does not make it so. You do realize that the recruiters can't stay in business if they do not satisfy their client's needs?

You assume that I have "limited experience" because I disagree with you. I have been in the profession for over ten years now. I don't know what your experience is exactly, but it is a very safe bet that our experiences are different.

Many of the recruiters I have dealt with don't seem to know enough to come in out of the rain.

perhaps it is your negative vibes coming across to the recruiters you've been in contact with that is partially to blame for your bad experiences with them.

When it comes to manipulating people, nothing is more important than vibe. Barack Obama is living proof of that.

Another thing Obama shows is that you have to believe your own baloney. If you don't believe your own baloney, nobody else will.

Many recruiters seem to have a pollyana optimism toward life. They really don't seem to have a firm grip on reality. I describe the vibe as: "Well, if I just pretend it's not raining, I won't get wet." When dealing with recruiters, this is the kind of vibe one has to show. Recruiters also actually believe their own baloney. It's a mentality I will never able to relate to, but it's certainly a role anyone can play.

 

[flapeyre]

I have been in IT for 15 years. I've been working since I turned 18 (I'm now 53).

I still say you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Many of the recruiters I have dealt with don't seem to know enough to come in out of the rain.

Either you are turning them off like a light switch, or you have been incredibly unlucky. I urge you to strongly consider the former as a possibility.

If you don't believe your own baloney, nobody else will.

I'm sure Obama "believe[s his] own baloney," but I certainly don't. Therefore, that premise is false.

Nullum gratuitum prandium.
--Sleipinir214

 

[KornGeek]

...
Many of the recruiters I have dealt with don't seem to know enough to come in out of the rain.
...
When it comes to manipulating people, nothing is more important than vibe. Barack Obama is living proof of that.
...
Many recruiters seem to have a pollyana optimism toward life. They really don't seem to have a firm grip on reality.
...

Credibility levels critical!

Continuing to show a negative outlook (while amazingly increasing the negativity) and drawing politics into this (sex, politics, and religion seldom make for polite conversation) makes it difficult for me to take you seriously. I believe you can be above this if you choose to be. A person of your age should be capable of showing more maturity.

 

[spamly]

Can we bring this back on track? I really enjoy reading different well-thought, respectful opinions on this site. I think that we may begin to digress further if we don't steer this conversion back towards its original topic.

 

[kmcferrin]

You assume that I have "limited experience" because I disagree with you. I have been in the profession for over ten years now. I don't know what your experience is exactly, but it is a very safe bet that our experiences are different.

Well, you've got me beat. I've "only" been in the IT business for 9 years, but I am positive that our experiences are quite different. I have worked with recruiters and consulting firms for a little over 6 of those years, and while there were some bad apples overall the experience was very positive. I've never had any trouble finding work, and my salary has nearly tripled in that time.

Granted, I haven't sat back and let the recruiters do all the work for me. I was 26 when I decided to "start over" again with a career in IT. I started as a PC tech making a little over $30k, but I looked for every opportunity to further develop my skills and expertise. Every time I moved to a new job I tried to make it a step above the last one. Any time there was a project dealing with new technology I tried to get involved. I always tried to put 100% into everything that I did and learn as much about technology as possible. I never expected anyone else to provide me with training or other opportunities, I went looking for them. And when those sorts of opportunities were available I jumped all over them and made the most of them. Instead of focusing solely on learning the job that I had I also put considerable effort into learning the job that I wanted.

Of course there were occasional setbacks. When that happens you can either choose to dwell on them and blame other people for the problems, or you can look for ways to avoid/prevent them in the future. Everything that happened to me in those 9 years was an opportunity to learn how to be just a little bit better at what I do.

In summary:

I worked very hard at doing my job, advancing my career and bettering myself. My employers over the years have recognized that and rewarded me. Anyone can do the same thing, ANYONE. It's simply a matter of having the right attitude and dedication.

And do you know what the biggest secret of them all is? The average person in IT (or the workforce in general) doesn't have that attitude or that level of dedication. There are far too many people in the IT industry with a "9 to 5" mentality who are not willing to do more than the bare minimum to keep their jobs. There are far too many people who expect opportunities or big raises to just be handed to them. Next to them a truly driven, honest, hard working individual sticks out like they have a giant neon sign over their head. If you're smart and a hard worker then it's easy to rise above the crowd.

This doesn't just go to ShoalCreek, but also to the OP and anyone else looking to make a career in IT: It's your future, and it can be whatever you make of it. Why would you want to short change yourself?

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[flapeyre]

Recruiters also actually believe their own baloney. It's a mentality I will never able to relate to...

Then why do you advocate it?

Nullum gratuitum prandium.
--Sleipinir214