How much am I worth?? 8

[TechieTony]

Good Morning All,

I am running into a personal quandry at work and could use some advice from some of my IT brethren.

I work at a midsized corporation, about 110 employees with about 90 supported pc's over 6 states. I am the only person in the IT dept making me the IT dept. This is my first job out of college and I live in Denver Colorado. I earned my degree in MIS/minor SCSI and I currently have my A+ and N+ with 2 years of Cisco Networking at junior college while getting my MIS. I hopefully will be getting my CCNA by August. I have been with the company for about 2 years now and I feel as though I am an asset to the company at this point.

I love my job, ive been you average geek since 15 yrs old and im 25 now. The problem I have is with my pay. I went out to eat with a buddy of mine who is also into IT and he remarked on how the pay was really good.... so I asked him what he was making. Now my buddy has a technical degree with no certs and is making around 48,000 a year which shocked me because I make around 36,000 a year. So I went to salary.com calculator and the base pay for IT im my area is about 55,000 a year which makes me think im getting shafted here.

Now im not big into pay and im not a greedy man by any means but I just dont feel like im getting my fair worth. So basically I want to ask for a raise but I dont know what exactly should I be asking for, my boss is a cheap skate and this company makes millions......

Any responses are greatly appreciated...

Antony

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...tor&hdJobCategory=IT03&hdNarrowDesc=IT -- All

 

[rjoubert]

I agree with RiverGuy. I am currently a contractor working at a large company. This company counts on a select few recruiting companies to supply it with contractors. Many departments within this company are at their max headcount for full time employees, but still need help, so they have no choice but to bring contractors on board.

 

[Stella740pl]

I agree: don't count out recruiting firms completely. Especially at your second-job-out-of-school level. My best jobs so far, both full time and consulting, I found through recruiting/consulting firms. Some companies just don't do the initial candidate prescreening or don't advertise/recruit directly, but instead rely on a recruiting company of their choice to do it for them.

My current job hires both directly or through recruiters. It's just that somehow it never even occurred to me to look that way - and was I wrong. A recruiter matched me with this job, and he was right, it's like it was tailored for me.

 

[gbaughma]

How much am I worth?

About $4 worth of chemicals. That's all any of us are worth.



Just my 2¢
-Cole's Law: Shredded cabbage

--Greg

http://parallel.tzo.com

 

[shoalcreek]

I would not count out recruiting firms. Some companies will not post all of their open positions but instead ask the recruiting firm to find qualified candidates.

That's true that many companies do not post all of their open positions. Often such positions are filled solely by the use of referrals. If you treat your employees well, your employees become your best recruiters. If you don't, then your own employees may very well tell people to stay away.

The good companies don't use recruiting firms. For starters, they have low turnover rates. They have employees giving referrals.

Think about this. Acme Computer is a lousy place to work. Acme hires a recruiter, Smith and Jones. Acme has to pay Smith and Jones to market their company. If a company has to pay for marketing, it has a problem. This is because Acme has become the company where nobody wants to work.

Recruiters don't work for you. They do not care about you. And most of them in my experience don't know enough to come in out of the rain. They seem to be people who couldn't make it in a real human resources job and couldn't make it in a real sales job.

 

[JCreamerII]

gbaughma,

Actually we are individually worth (probably more dead than alive) alot to the spare parts companies. Do you know what a kidney is worth (well not my kidney but maybe yours). It's gone from a cottage industry to big business.

Jim C.

 

[JCreamerII]

Tony,

At some point you will have to decide what's more important to you, the money or the security. Most of us are worth more if we go somewhere else. Are we going to like were we move to, people, work, commute, environment, comp. Make yourself happy were ever that path takes you. You are the only one who can make that call.

Jim C.

 

[Stella740pl]

If you treat your employees well, your employees become your best recruiters.

So what happens if they don't know anyone with this particular skillset? Or if they refer one or two people because they are friends, but that's not enough to select a truly qulified candidate?

Acme hires a recruiter, Smith and Jones. Acme has to pay Smith and Jones to market their company.

No, no, not for marketing. It is just plain wrong statement. They pay for sifting through tons of resumes, prescreening and preselecting resumes, for doing background check, if required, and then for submitting only a smaller batch of resumes to the company to work on.

This is because Acme has become the company where nobody wants to work.

What if Acme is a nice small but growing company that cannot afford to keep a full human recources department, but still is quite an attractive place to work for many people (those who prefer to be a big fish in a small pond)? How would these people find out about that small company?

(But even the best companies have to pay for marketing of their products. Does it mean that they have a problem? Well, of course, if they didn't pay for marketing, who would have known their product?)

Recruiters don't work for you. They do not care about you.

Of course they don't. Why would they? They work for themselves. What's wrong with it?
If they are doing any good, and find the best qualified candidates for the company, evrybody will be happy: the company will hire them again and again, they will make money, you will get a job you want but didn't know about or couldn't get into otherwise. If they don't know what they are doing, they wouldn't stay in business for long.

And most of them in my experience don't know enough to come in out of the rain.

I've met several quite good ones.

They seem to be people who couldn't make it in a real human resources job and couldn't make it in a real sales job

Ha! If they are good, they make much better money than in a "real human recources" job. And yes, they ARE in a REAL sales job.

 

[KornGeek]

After I moved to the area where I now live, I had a lot of difficulty finding a job. I had no business contacts or friends in the area to go through. In addition to job boards, classified ads, craigslist, etc., I registered with just about every temp/placement agency.

In the nearly 3 years that I've been here:
(I can't tell what the rules are for naming recruiting firms, so I'll just name them. It seems that you can name them if you're saying positives, but not if you're saying negatives. Each of these is a little of both.)

I found one job through craigslist. It was a miserable place to work, and we parted ways after 6 months. I also had about 5 interviews that never developed into anything.

TekSystems did a thorough job of assessing my skills, and had several promising leads for me, but nothing ever even made it to the interview stage.

Manpower did some assesment of my skills, and found me a great 3 month gig. I loved the job, but I was only filling in for a person who was out on leave. The pay was decent, but a little below average. There were about 2 other interviews that never materialized.

Robert Half interviewed me about my skillset, but didn't do any testing of it. They sent me out on several short-term gigs ranging widely in pay. Mostly, the jobs were enjoyable, but only had temporary needs. I am currently working a contract-to-hire position through them, and I absolutely love the job (the pay is on the lower side, but there are many other factors that make it worthwhile). There was also 1 interview that went nowhere.

None of the other agencies did any assessment or got me any interviews or work. However, I was speaking with some smaller recruiting companies where my contact knew my work from when they previously worked at another company. Unfortunately, the only times they had promising opportunites were when I was already in a position elsewhere.

All recruiters that I've worked with seem eager to contact you when they have a promising lead, but when they don't have anything for you (or when a lead falls through) they can be rather difficult to get on the phone. In general, the industry is a mixed bag. (In defense of the recruiters, my skill set had gotten a bit out of date, and there isn't a lot of demand for my most developed skills. I'm not the easiest candidate to place.)

 

[shoalcreek]

I agree KornGeek. I will add that it is not unusual at all for recruiters like the ones you mentioned to completely abandon people even if such people have done a good job for them.

One recruiter sent me out to Dell in 2005. Dell has a rule that ends your contract at 270 days or 1450 hours. I got another contract at Dell in 2006 through a different recruiter. Obviously Dell was okay with bringing me back on. But the recruiter that had sent me to Dell for the first contract has not contacted me even once for an interview, even though I had done a good enough job to get back on with Dell for a second contract in the same building and with some of the same people.

You also mentioned another problem with recruiters. For every contract that they actually get, there are about ten contracts that they think they will get. I've also been contacted about contracts by as many six recruiters--all calling wanting to submit me for the same contract. This also tells me that there is no shortage of technical talent.

There are probably way too many recruiters out there.

The system would work much better if it was like the system that is in place for actors. I know quite a few actors here in Austin. An actor signs with an agent. That agent finds the actor work and takes a cut. Agents do act as screeners, just like recruiters do. The difference is that agents sincerely do care about the business and are sincerely interested in helping their talent succeed. The result is that the most talented and hardest working people do end up getting ahead. And the acting business is a lot more saturated than IT is.

What if Acme is a nice small but growing company that cannot afford to keep a full human recources department, but still is quite an attractive place to work for many people (those who prefer to be a big fish in a small pond)? How would these people find out about that small company?

These small companies generally don't use recruiters anyway. I am also willing to bet that most recruiters don't have any interest in doing any business with small companies anyway. They want big contracts, and most small companies don't want to pay them. Most of the companies that use recruiters here in Austin are companies like Dell, AMD, and Motorola.

 

[shoalcreek]

For once Shoalcreek and I are in agreement, don't waste your time with ...recruiting firm.... I did several contracts with them when I first got started consulting and had nothing but problems.

What is the difference between a consulting firm and a recruiting firm? I have generally used them interchangeably. Perhaps, I am mistaken.

 

[CajunCenturion]

What is the difference between a consulting firm and a recruiting firm?

A recruiting firm find jobs for others.
A consulting firm finds jobs for itself.


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[kmcferrin]

What is the difference between a consulting firm and a recruiting firm? I have generally used them interchangeably. Perhaps, I am mistaken.

The comment that you quoted me on was edited by Tek Tips after I posted it. It named a particular recruiting firm and the name has been redacted. If you look at your post just above mine, you'll see that something similar happened to your post.

But to your question, recruiting companies are really nothing more than temp/placement services for IT jobs. Some may call themselves "consulting" companies, but they typically have nobody on their internal staff who isn't sales/recruiting and payroll related. They provide workers to fill a slot. Because of that they deal in commodities and pay people like they are commodities.

Consulting companies, on the other hand, are consultative. By that I mean that they typically aren't just trying to find a body to fill a position (though there may be some of that going around). Instead they are trying to find a solution for a customer's particular need. They typically have an large internal staff with wide-ranging technical and management skills. Maintaining a pool of highly skilled technical workers with experience that is in demand is key to a consulting company's success, and their pay and benefits usually reflect that.

For example, a large customer may need to do an Active Directory migration or consolidation and not have enough available staff to do that and maintain their current workflow. That company can design and manage the project themselves, and then go to a recruiting company to find extra workers to help with this temporary staffing need. They can also go to a consulting company where the consultaning company provides project managers, engineers, and other workers who work with the company's IT staff to determine a project scope, deliverables, timelines, etc and provide technical expertise that usually is not available to the customer. The consulting company is responsible for executing the project successfully, as opposed to providing "grunts" to do all of the work.


You also mentioned another problem with recruiters. For every contract that they actually get, there are about ten contracts that they think they will get. I've also been contacted about contracts by as many six recruiters--all calling wanting to submit me for the same contract. This also tells me that there is no shortage of technical talent.

Actually it tells you two things:

1. There is a lot of competition among recruiting companies in that market space. Usually when you're dealing with a large customer (like Dell, since you mentioned it) every recruiting company in the area will have a business relationship with that customer. When the customer has a requirement for more staff they usually submit the req to their vendor management group, who then sends a copy of the req to every recruiting company that they have a relationship with (it wouldn't be fair to do otherwise). So now you'll have a dozen or more different companies competing for the same position, and only one of them is going to get it. The recruiters don't believe that they're going to get every contract that they get a req for, they just have to come up with one or more candidates for each req. I suspect that you're under the impression that because the recruiter is trying to fill a req that they have already been exclusively awarded that position (which may be the way that the recruiter represents it), but that is almost never the case.

2. The fact that you've had six different recruiters want to submit you for the same contract indicates that there isn't a plethora of highly skilled candidates just waiting for work. If there were then you probably would have only been offered the contract once or twice. But what you're describing is 6 different recruiting companies competing to get the same 1 qualified candidate. That indicates fairly clearly to me that there aren't enough candidates to go around.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[Welshbird]

I guess things must work differently in the US - In the UK you get a form (called a P45) from your old employers which you hand to your new employers. This goes via the payroll department to the Tax office.

And it lists how much you were paid, so if you 'invent' a new salary you'll surely be found out!

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

 

[kmcferrin]

Yes, in the US it works differently. If a potential employer asks what your old salary was you have no obligation to tell them anything. You can choose to tell them something, but if you do I would recommend that you tell them the truth. If you make something up and they somehow find out that you lied then you may find yourself unemployed. It's along the same lines as lying on your resume or job application.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[SantaMufasa]

I have no problem simply saying:

My salary requirements are <amount>.

...and my "salary requirements" don't have to relate to what I am currently making. The company then has the option to meet those salary requirements or to make a counter offer that may be less. I then have the option to counter their counter offer with the suggestion to consider some non-salary compensation to sweeten the total-compensation package enough to make it worthwhile to continue the discussion/negotiation.


If they choose not to pursue the non-salary discussion, then I have the option to thank them for the interview and leave.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”

 

[matrixindicator]

Antony,

First, congratulations with your certifications.
The value of a job is depending on different factors.
The actual market (is there a high demand for people with this skills ?), your position in the company (everyone can be replaced, but somethimes it is very difficult to replace someone), experience level, is it a week or strong company (financial healhty), average wages for your profile, age, negotiation skills, your boss ...
You have many plus (certified, as one person responsible for many "clients").
There is a min : it is your first job (don't expect to get paid at a maximum). People can also exagerate about their wages. In Europe wages are between ranges.

Make a balance for yourself (Am I wort more, can I get paid more in another job ?).

 

[shoalcreek]

The comment that you quoted me on was edited by Tek Tips after I posted it.

There has been a lot of that going on lately. If there was a private message system here, I would tell you how I really feel about it. It's unfortunate because providing real examples would be the best way to differentiate. I've also seen entire posts deleted.

It sounds like to me that a "consulting firm" has a manager managing at least one project. However, the project manager doesn't go on site. By this definition, I suppose a "consulting firm" could also just be a "service company."

For example, a large customer may need to do an Active Directory migration or consolidation and not have enough available staff to do that and maintain their current workflow.

I have been called by recruiters for these types of projects. The example I mentioned when I got called by about six recruiters was a Groupwise-to-Exchange migration for a large state agency.

It seems like the boundary between "consulting firm" and "recruiter" is very blurry and murky, in my experience. The only other difference I can think of is that recruiters will call you for short projects (one day or one week), while consulting firms will call you for longer ones.

I also think that the main reason why I got called by so many recruiters for that project was that recruiters are generally very lazy people. My resume has both the words Groupwise and Exchange on it. If they were letting a computer search for candidates instead of actually doing it themselves, that's probably why my name popped up.

 

[kmcferrin]

There has been a lot of that going on lately. If there was a private message system here, I would tell you how I really feel about it. It's unfortunate because providing real examples would be the best way to differentiate. I've also seen entire posts deleted.

Eh...I figured mine was a borderline post to begin with, since it was slagging a particular firm that I've had bad experiences with.


It sounds like to me that a "consulting firm" has a manager managing at least one project. However, the project manager doesn't go on site. By this definition, I suppose a "consulting firm" could also just be a "service company."

It doesn't necessarily have a PM, a smaller project could just be staffed by a consultant or two. The biggest distinction is that a recruiting firm provides bodies to do x amount of work, where a consulting firm is responsible for determining (with the customer, of course) how to get from point a to point b, including x amount of work, and is held accountable for the results. A consultant has more responsibility for the work whereas the person from the recruiting/staffing firm just does what he's told. You're right though, the line can be a bit murky which is why a lot of glorified temp agencies call themselves consulting companies.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[shoalcreek]

A consultant has more responsibility for the work whereas the person from the recruiting/staffing firm just does what he's told.

It sounds like the difference almost might be the type of work being done. I was once sent on an interview for a project that was nothing more than helping a company move hundreds or thousands of machines. My job would have been nothing more than opening boxes. I told the recruiter no, even though I was unemployed at the time. The job required no technical skills whatsoever. Being sent on that interview was an insult.

I also get calls for very high-level stuff. I have found that recruiters really don't make much effort to see if the person fits or not. I called for "monkey work" and for stuff that takes real experience.

I have done these opening-box projects for a couple days. It's interesting how many really experienced people I have met while doing them. Obviously, these people would rather be doing something else, as would I.

 

[anationalacrobat]

It is a virtual mindset of business life that companies will always think of you as "the guy they hired" rather than "the guy you have become"


That's absolutely correct. The other factor is that they are often ignorant of the going rate of what you're doing. Say you grew with a company and were in charge of all their networking. You knew nothing going in, researched and grew with the network, got yourself a CCNA with your own money because they were too stingy to pay for testing. Now here you are with a good cert, work experience to back it up, they have no idea what it'll cost to replace you.

This happened at the dot.com I was at. They knew me as the $13/hr web monkey and had no idea what I'd been teaching myself since I started there. My position would be very, very easy to replace, right? Heh. Once I was gone, replacements wouldn't even come in unless they were talking $45/hr and up. Of course, this was the middle of the dot.com boom but we're talking replacement cost, not what the position should be wroth.