How much am I worth?? 8

[TechieTony]

Good Morning All,

I am running into a personal quandry at work and could use some advice from some of my IT brethren.

I work at a midsized corporation, about 110 employees with about 90 supported pc's over 6 states. I am the only person in the IT dept making me the IT dept. This is my first job out of college and I live in Denver Colorado. I earned my degree in MIS/minor SCSI and I currently have my A+ and N+ with 2 years of Cisco Networking at junior college while getting my MIS. I hopefully will be getting my CCNA by August. I have been with the company for about 2 years now and I feel as though I am an asset to the company at this point.

I love my job, ive been you average geek since 15 yrs old and im 25 now. The problem I have is with my pay. I went out to eat with a buddy of mine who is also into IT and he remarked on how the pay was really good.... so I asked him what he was making. Now my buddy has a technical degree with no certs and is making around 48,000 a year which shocked me because I make around 36,000 a year. So I went to salary.com calculator and the base pay for IT im my area is about 55,000 a year which makes me think im getting shafted here.

Now im not big into pay and im not a greedy man by any means but I just dont feel like im getting my fair worth. So basically I want to ask for a raise but I dont know what exactly should I be asking for, my boss is a cheap skate and this company makes millions......

Any responses are greatly appreciated...

Antony

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...tor&hdJobCategory=IT03&hdNarrowDesc=IT -- All

 

[rjoubert]

Bring your salary research with you when you meet with your boss. It helps to have documentation for him to see. Also, be sure the research reflects the job that you do so you're comparing apples to apples.

Another idea would be to find another job. I'm not saying you need to accept another job, but interview for another job, get an idea of the salary you would make at this new job, and bring that info to your boss. Let him know that you're seriously considering the new offer but that you would like to give him the opportunity to keep you around with a counter offer.

 

[georgiw]

Yes, bring your research with you and call the meeting with your boss. Take the initiative yourself.

I did this once and the boss was very impressed with my documentation and got me a raise.

If you don't speak up, no one will. Since you are relatively younger than I, it pays for you now to make the salary changes in order to survive in your future career goals. I stayed at a company almost 18 years working my way through to Telecommunications. I didn't press for additional salary very often and come to find out, now that I'm Telecom manager at a different firm, I was way underpaid. You don't want your earnings to be capped because most likely new prospective firms won't want to pay you the bigger bucks when they see you've settled for smaller ones for a long period of time. Take my advice, just do it and quickly.

G

 

[kmcferrin]

I would think that you're probably underpaid, but I also think that you work for a small company rather than a mid-sized business. When you're dealing with smaller companies like that you'll find that they tend to pay less. Because of this they usually end up stuck with taking either lesser skilled people or serving as the career launchpad for up-and-comers.

You also might want to look at this:

http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-art...obs_are-435;_ylt=AovtffwxG30qEUIibMS_8lLWn414

The reality though is that you're probably going to have to jump to another company to get the kind of raise that you're looking for. Unless your boss thinks that they've been taking advantage of you for the past two years, they're not going to bump you by 33%-50%. For most IT people the only way to see a significant raise is to jump ship and go to another company. Most employers will only give a raise of 3-5% a year. Jumping to another employer can net you several times that, especially if you are underpaid to begin with.

One more thing to keep in mind is that it's not uncommon for IT workers to spend their first 5-7 years out of school jumping around every couple of years. Every jump is usually a pay bump and a resume upgrade, and it takes a few to go from the $36k "just out of school" salary to making $75-100k. On the bright side, there is a serious shortage of skilled IT workers, so if you're good at what you do then you can do very well for yourself.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[TechieTony]

All very good suggestions, I will start to apply for other IT jobs in my range around my area for comparison as well as some documentation. I agree I would consider this a small company... and they due have a trend to underpay their employees. Kind of a bummer considering I really like this job but ya have to do what you have to do

Keep em comin

 

[SANEngInCO]

If you don't want to "apply" for another job, you can do the research on Dice.com, Monster.com or JobServe.com or others and gather a bunch of job req's that have salaries listed for jobs that are similar in nature to what you're doing and use that along with your Salary.com information when you talk to your boss. You might want to check other sites in addition to Salary.com so you have a nice mix to show them, and they can't say you didn't do enough research.

It's all about researching and providing a detailed case to answer the obvious question "Why?".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein

 

[kmcferrin]

You don't want your earnings to be capped because most likely new prospective firms won't want to pay you the bigger bucks when they see you've settled for smaller ones for a long period of time.

The simple fix to that is to not tell your prospective employers how much money you make at your current job. It's none of their business anyway. Tell them how much money you want (and aim a little higher in case they counter). If they ask about your current salary, tell them you're negotiating based on what you believe that you're worth under current market conditions, not based on how much the last company paid you. Just make sure that what you're asking for isn't totally out of whack with the going rate in your area.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[shoalcreek]

I consider it a major red flag anytime a potential employer asks me about money. This especially applies to any employer who ask for a "salary requirement" or a "salary history" up front.

Most employers already have some idea of what they want to pay for a position. They have a certain amount of money in the budget and know what they paid the last person in the job. When they ask you, they are just trying to be clever. It is a no-win situation, and it tells me that they already see their relationship with you as a game that has winners and losers.

If you say something below their budget, they may just give you that. Or if you go too low, they might figure: "Well, this guy must not be any good." If you go high, it's also over.

Some employers do not allow employees to talk about salary. If a potential employer asks you about salary, just say that your current employer does not allow you to discuss that. However, you shouldn't take a job with such a company anyway.

This is one place where governments and often colleges and universities are about the only honest ones left. When you apply for a government job, they generally give you the salary upfront. They let you decide if the money is acceptable or not. This is how honest companies deal with the salary issue. Instead of being coy about it, they are honest about it.

Never accept a counter-offer. Once you have given notice, you can never take it back. People who do accept counter offers don't stick around much anyway.

Don't waste your time with Monster, Dice, and etc. Get out and meet people. Find a place where you really want to work.

I don't know how long it will take you. I recommend you only interview for jobs that are really good ones. Contrary to what some people say, there is certainly no shortage of technical talent out there (at least in Austin). There are still plenty of people who are unemployed and plenty who are underemployed.

 

[shoalcreek]

Finally, I advise against the want ads, Craigslist, etc. Keep in mind that many of these ads allow the employer to hide his/her identity.

Back in 2001, I noticed an ad in the Sunday paper. I thought: "Gee, that looks like my company." I didn't respond to that ad. I later found out that my employer was advertising that job.

Of course, if an employer tries a stunt like that, you should get out anyway. Some employers may not be looking for a new employee--they may just want to know if any of their employees are looking.

Employers also ask for "salary requirements" just because they may be doing a salary survey.

I really think you should find a place where you really want to work. Go after that employer. Find people on the inside there who can really help you.

 

[SantaMufasa]

It is a virtual mindset of business life that companies will always think of you as "the guy they hired" rather than "the guy you have become". As a result (as was disclosed above), they bump your salary, at best, 5-7% per year (and that's if revenue has been good during the current year for the company).

Therefore, your best way to boost your salary is "job jumping". When I worked at Oracle, I felt that they underpaid me; they used "economic conditions" as their excuse to not pay what my market would bear. After several years of loyal service to Oracle, my next job interview, I gave the interviewer "The Flinch Test" and quote double my previous salary. They not only did not flinch and agreed to my request, but they also threw in 20K shares of stock options at well below market value.

If an interviewer asks you your "salary requirements", tell her/him the amount you want, which represents the "going rate" (or higher) for your job based upon your research, and not some salary number based upon your current salary. (Remember, you are not the same guy you were when you started several years ago at your current company.) Then, no matter what they counter with, do not accept that amount immediately...Instead, ask them, "What other compensation-package components are available to make package more worth your consideration. (See other threads in this forum for other compensation-package components that you can request that can significantly increase the total-package value of your compensation.)

FYI, the highly skilled IT tech that I just hired (just across the mountain from you to the west from Denver) I am paying $75K, and I believe that is fair and reasonable compensation (rather than simply a "low ball" to get the guy as cheaply as possible). I want my people to be happy and willing to stay for an extended period of time.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
A fo ben, bid bont.

 

[RiverGuy]

It is a virtual mindset of business life that companies will always think of you as "the guy they hired" rather than "the guy you have become"

Great statement. And it's not (necessarily) your boss's call. Politics and company rules can go a long ways trumping your boss's ability to promote you or give you a hefty raise.

As an example, I got a job several years ago as I was completing my degree which started as a "show us what you can do" position that turned into a highly-visible/highly-important development position within a year. A few months after I left, I was offered almost double to come back--with a better job title, but doing mostly the same type of work.

Also be ware if you go on any interviews to get offer letters for more pay, that it sometimes looks bad to the prospective employer. You don't want to burn any bridges with companies you might really want to work for in the future. I would personally feel bad going on interviews with no intention whatsoever of considering the position.

 

[kmcferrin]

I consider it a major red flag anytime a potential employer asks me about money. This especially applies to any employer who ask for a "salary requirement" or a "salary history" up front.

I suppose that you prefer to be paid in peanuts rather than money? Here's a news flash for you, if you are looking for employment then financial compensation will play a major role in whether you take the job (or whether they offer it). There's absolutely nothing wrong with providing your salary "requirements" to a prospective employer. All you're doing is saying that "this is how much I believe I am worth." It's the first step in ANY salary negotiation.

It can also save you a lot of trouble. As you pointed out, most employers have a salary range in mind for the position. Likewise, most job candidates have a salary range in mind for taking the position. If your requirements are higher than their pay scale then there's no point in interviewing with them, is there? So would you rather waste your time interviewing and negotiating with a company only to find out that there's no way they can pay you what you need, or would you prefer to be ruled out from the beginning? Because even if there's a slight chance that you might be able to convince them to hire you at your requested salary, you'll have an awful time trying to get raises because you will have already maxed out their pay scale for that position.

Contrary to what some people say, there is certainly no shortage of technical talent out there (at least in Austin).

Good for Austin. Apparently they're the exception to the rule. By the way, I didn't say there was a "shortage of technical talent." I said that there was a "shortage of SKILLED IT workers." An unemployed/underemployed IT worker is not the same thing as an unemployed/underemployed SKILLED IT worker.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[sstoppel]

The only long-term arrangement for both parties that is successful is this: They pay you what you are worth, then you give your best effort to do what the job description says.

Right now the company is biding its time and getting whatever they can from you before you figure it out. Do you really want to work for a company like that? You are probably at %50 -%60 of what you should be paid.

 

[shoalcreek]

I want my people to be happy and willing to stay for an extended period of time.

That's great. It's a shame you are in such a small minority.

 

[TechieTony]

So after some serious research and listening to your opinions. I have come to find out that im pretty underpaid at this point. I have setup some 3 interviews with reputable companies, one of which has asked me to provide my current salary....

It seems to me as thought my current boss thinks of me as "the guy they hired" and will probably refuse to give me the going rate. This makes since to me because I am at a small company as well as the first "IT guy" they have had. I am more that willing to stay with the company as they grow with hopes of being compensated at a later date, but this is not a certainty.

I hate to low ball my self so I will go to these interviews that I have setup and see what "true" market value is for my services. Even so I would be willing to accept 45,000 - 50,000 as opposed to 36,000 as not to scare my current employer away. If they scoff at this offer then obviously not only do my employers have no idea what market rate is on an IT guy.

I will keep you all updated

 

[SANEngInCO]

Some things I've learned by going through this process several times in the past 18 months is there are ways around giving them a number when asked "what are your salary requirements." Simply say something like "salary isn't my most driving factor. If the position, company, environment and benefits all come together then we can work through the numbers." There are many ways to say things like that, but this is a brief version. It does work and if the company does give you a hard time about this, then I'd be very weary about them. A quality manager will understand this comment. The other way to get around it if they must have a number is to give them a larger range. If you truly want $50k, then give them a range of $45k - $60k. It's large enough to give you plenty of wiggle room and most likely won't exclude you from consideration.

I've been lucky in my career that I've had a great boss that went to bat for me and doubled my salary in 3 yrs. After only 4.5 years in my field, my salary is 2.5x what I started with in 2004.

If you want to stay away from the job boards like Dice and Monster, try contacting some reputible recruiting firms in your area. Companies like TEKSystems and KForce are just two of the many that are of any quality. Stay away from the "fly by night" recruiters though. LinkedIn is also a great place to network, if you haven't already checked it out.

Good luck.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein

 

[RiverGuy]

If you need additional info on going rates, check here:

http://www.roberthalftechnology.com...oid=9f2d9926053d8010VgnVCM1000002d3ffd0aRCRD.

If you get the free salary guide, don't be surprised if you get a phone call from an RHT recruiter.

 

[shoalcreek]

So after some serious research and listening to your opinions.

I have some doubts about this research. There is the saying that you can make numbers mean whatever you want them to mean.

I have setup some 3 interviews with reputable companies, one of which has asked me to provide my current salary.

The company which has asked you to provide your current salary is not reputable. "By their deeds, you shall know them." You can disqualify them right now.

More importantly, it is very possible to interview too much. Working full-time and looking for another job can burn you out very quickly. Since you are already working, you can afford to be selective. You definitely should be.

You also shouldn't waste your time with the likes of companies like ...recruiting firm...

Is your salary really the only thing "wrong" with this job? Or are there other reasons you want to leave?

 

[kmcferrin]

For once Shoalcreek and I are in agreement, don't waste your time with ...recruiting firm.... I did several contracts with them when I first got started consulting and had nothing but problems. They may be big, but they are not an IT consulting firm. But regardless of which division you work for (and they're all staffed from the same office) they will treat you like a $10/hour office temp. I also wouldn't go by their salary guide either, as they tend to underpay.

We're also in agreement on the idea that you should pass on the company that is asking for your current salary info. That's none of their business.

I do tend to disagree with SANEngInCO's suggestion of specifying a salary range. In most cases if you say that you're looking for $45k-$60k, they're going to offer you $45k because you've told them that you will take $45k. When you ask for more they'll say, "but you said $45k." Not that you can't negotiate up, but it's harder in that case. If you ever have to give salary requirements you should do two things:

1. Figure out how much you want for the job($X), and the minimum you would take for the job($Y).

2. Tell them that you want $X + some extra. That way if they try to negotiate you down you can end up close to what you really wanted. There's also the chance that they'll simply agree to pay you $X, and that's fine too. Under no circumstances should you go under $Y.

If you can't get the pay that you want then try to negotiate for some non-salary compensation. You could go for signing or performance bonuses (with clearly defined and achieveable goals of course), or more vacation time, etc.


________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator

 

[RiverGuy]

I would not count out recruiting firms. Some companies will not post all of their open positions but instead ask the recruiting firm to find qualified candidates.