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How best to get ahead in the world 3
- Thread starter KornGeek
- Start date
ousoonerjoe
Programmer
at the end of the day, i would like to say "yes, the good guys win out," but you do see a lot of horse's backsides out there in high places. Could the part 2 of your question be: Does power breed blind arrogance and/or paranoia that everyone is out for your job?
"If I were to wake up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised than I am right now.
"If I were to wake up with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised than I am right now.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I think the first thing we need to define is "get ahead". I think get ahead means different things to different people. Hard work and dedication are the best ways to meet certain objectives, but that going to be a good prescription for every objective.
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
==> but that going to be a good prescription for every objective.
but that's NOT going to be a good prescription for every objective.
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but that's NOT going to be a good prescription for every objective.
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- Thread starter
- #5
After reflecting on this a bit, I think part of the perception that the unworthy advance easier is that those who are (to borrow a term) horses' backsides are far more visible that those who do an excellent job in a similar position.
It's easy to think of CEO who either do an incredible job (a small percentage) or who do an incredibly bad job (also a small percentage). The vast majority of CEOs are practically invisible.
Similarly, I believe that the people who get ahead through underhanded means aren't higher in number, but instead are more recognized.
Another aspect is that I believe that many people who don't get ahead (or aren't there yet) make judgements based upon how they think they would do the job without fully understanding what goes into some of these decisions. In some of the higher ranking positions, political games are part of how the job gets done (you need to keep you workers, investors, and customers all happy). This leads to the belief that the people got ahead through manipulation and trickery.
Also, because politics come into play at higher levels, I think those positions tend to attract those who are more willing to play those games. Actually, those who can manipulate and play the political games may actually be the better candidates for the job precisely for those skills.
At the end of the day, I'm not actually that concerned with how most other people get ahead; I'm much more concerned with how I conduct myself and how I feel about the person I see in the mirror.
It's easy to think of CEO who either do an incredible job (a small percentage) or who do an incredibly bad job (also a small percentage). The vast majority of CEOs are practically invisible.
Similarly, I believe that the people who get ahead through underhanded means aren't higher in number, but instead are more recognized.
Another aspect is that I believe that many people who don't get ahead (or aren't there yet) make judgements based upon how they think they would do the job without fully understanding what goes into some of these decisions. In some of the higher ranking positions, political games are part of how the job gets done (you need to keep you workers, investors, and customers all happy). This leads to the belief that the people got ahead through manipulation and trickery.
Also, because politics come into play at higher levels, I think those positions tend to attract those who are more willing to play those games. Actually, those who can manipulate and play the political games may actually be the better candidates for the job precisely for those skills.
At the end of the day, I'm not actually that concerned with how most other people get ahead; I'm much more concerned with how I conduct myself and how I feel about the person I see in the mirror.
I have seen it work both ways. It is all dependent on the individual's strong point.
If politics and manipulation are someone's strong point and those around him allow themselves to be manipulated, he is in a winning position.
Hard work and dedication help those of us with a high degree of integrity sleep better at night. Because we don't like just getting by, we seek reward in our accomplishments not in how little we have to do to accomplish it.
Bo
Remember,
If the women don't find you handsome,
they should at least find you handy.
(Red Green)
If politics and manipulation are someone's strong point and those around him allow themselves to be manipulated, he is in a winning position.
Hard work and dedication help those of us with a high degree of integrity sleep better at night. Because we don't like just getting by, we seek reward in our accomplishments not in how little we have to do to accomplish it.
Bo
Remember,
If the women don't find you handsome,
they should at least find you handy.
(Red Green)
One universal thing I've found in life is that hard work and dedication alone gets you nowhere in this world - and that includes my work experiences. Smartly done hard work and dedication starts to get you somewhere, however. The question is what "smartly-done" means in that prior sentence.
As for work experiences, again, I find that people who "get ahead" are the ones that are favored and well-liked by management for whatever reason it may be, usually nothing related to ability to do the job - be it how they look or outside interests, or yes how much brown-nosing said subordinate does.
As for hard work and effort, I find in most of my work experiences that they are best directed towards what is the best reward for the situation. And in the business world, that translates into "politics and manipulation" more often than not. What you are paid for is often not "doing the task at hand". In fact, I notice the ones that show the least ability and work the least get the farthest ahead in most of my work experiences. Why? They play the political manipulation game well.
I find in my observations that the ones that are most unfavored and disliked are those that don't play the political manipulation game very well. Not coincidentally, those are likely the first ones out the door in any layoff situation. And get really unfavored and disliked? Management will seek out any excuse, the smallest that they can find, to get you out the door.
In an ideal world, hard work and determination gets you everywhere and anywhere. But sadly, this world is far from an ideal one.
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Measurement is not management.
As for work experiences, again, I find that people who "get ahead" are the ones that are favored and well-liked by management for whatever reason it may be, usually nothing related to ability to do the job - be it how they look or outside interests, or yes how much brown-nosing said subordinate does.
As for hard work and effort, I find in most of my work experiences that they are best directed towards what is the best reward for the situation. And in the business world, that translates into "politics and manipulation" more often than not. What you are paid for is often not "doing the task at hand". In fact, I notice the ones that show the least ability and work the least get the farthest ahead in most of my work experiences. Why? They play the political manipulation game well.
I find in my observations that the ones that are most unfavored and disliked are those that don't play the political manipulation game very well. Not coincidentally, those are likely the first ones out the door in any layoff situation. And get really unfavored and disliked? Management will seek out any excuse, the smallest that they can find, to get you out the door.
In an ideal world, hard work and determination gets you everywhere and anywhere. But sadly, this world is far from an ideal one.
----------
Measurement is not management.
One of my old sig lines seems to fit with this thread too, something a bit Dilbert-inspired. Seems to say what I was saying in my last post very well.
Those who work hard are rewarded with more work and remembered come time to downsize. Those who hardly work are given a paycheck and ignored completely.
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Measurement is not management.
Those who work hard are rewarded with more work and remembered come time to downsize. Those who hardly work are given a paycheck and ignored completely.
----------
Measurement is not management.
You have to be careful not to end up like Tom Smykowski.
He felt that he worked hard and had good people skills but was still let go when Initech had to downsize. ;-)
Bo
Remember,
If the women don't find you handsome,
they should at least find you handy.
(Red Green)
He felt that he worked hard and had good people skills but was still let go when Initech had to downsize. ;-)
Bo
Remember,
If the women don't find you handsome,
they should at least find you handy.
(Red Green)
- Thread starter
- #10
shoalcreek
MIS
Here's an example that I know very well--my only nephew. On the whole, he's a great young man and also quite smart. I think he's majoring in engineering or something like that right now. He just turned 21.
And now for the punch line--my 21-year-old nephew still has no driver's license. He has had FIVE YEARS to get it. He even admitted once that he hasn't gotten it because "I'm lazy." In spite of that, he's pretty happy with his life. He always manages to convince someone to give him a ride. In my opinion, my nephew is definitely a manipulator.
His college is about 65 miles from home. He grew up in a town of about 10,000 with no public transportation. The college town has about 20,000 or 30,000 people. He has never lived in a place in New York.
I'm confident that eventually he will get his license. I don't think his many friends are going to haul him around forever.
I have plenty of confidence that my nephew will make plenty of money and always have a good job. He knows how to play the game. This is in spite of the fact that he has admitted to his family members: "I'm lazy." I was there when he said it.
And now for the punch line--my 21-year-old nephew still has no driver's license. He has had FIVE YEARS to get it. He even admitted once that he hasn't gotten it because "I'm lazy." In spite of that, he's pretty happy with his life. He always manages to convince someone to give him a ride. In my opinion, my nephew is definitely a manipulator.
His college is about 65 miles from home. He grew up in a town of about 10,000 with no public transportation. The college town has about 20,000 or 30,000 people. He has never lived in a place in New York.
I'm confident that eventually he will get his license. I don't think his many friends are going to haul him around forever.
I have plenty of confidence that my nephew will make plenty of money and always have a good job. He knows how to play the game. This is in spite of the fact that he has admitted to his family members: "I'm lazy." I was there when he said it.
Interesting.
I did not get my driver's license until I was 47. Mind you, I never got anyone to give me rides. At least not on any regular basis, like going to work, or school. Rode a bike. Walked.
My point being that i do not belive there is a direct connection with having a driver's license, and being a manipulator. Perhaps your nephew is...I don't know. If he depends on getting rides from others, then...yes, I suppose he is.
I never depended on anyone.
faq219-2884
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
I did not get my driver's license until I was 47. Mind you, I never got anyone to give me rides. At least not on any regular basis, like going to work, or school. Rode a bike. Walked.
My point being that i do not belive there is a direct connection with having a driver's license, and being a manipulator. Perhaps your nephew is...I don't know. If he depends on getting rides from others, then...yes, I suppose he is.
I never depended on anyone.
faq219-2884
Gerry
My paintings and sculpture
shoalcreek
MIS
He is in that regard definitely. I don't know where you are. Here it is extremely unusual to get to the age of 21 and still not have a driver's license. He grew up in a small town and still lives in a pretty small college town.
I can think of another example of a man I know in his 30's. For about two or three years, he lived off his girl friend. His girl friend was a topless dancer. He drove her car and basically did a lot of what he pleased.
I took an out-of-town class with him. Other people gave him a ride to the training. Their friends gave him a place to stay. I always found it interesting that everybody seemed to think that he was such a great guy.
This ultimately comes back to the biggest key to success in your career. If you ask anyone who has a good job, they will likely tell you that they got it because somebody helped them. People who are successful in their careers have probably had lots of people help them.
Getting people to help you is a skill all its own. The skill of getting people to help you has nothing to do with your ability, work ethic, brains, passion, or talents. And how much people help you also has very little to do with how much you help others.
Yes people with great careers have probably had help from someone, but typically people aren't willing to help someone who they don't believe can do the job to their standards.
I have worked with maybe 6 people in 10 years that if my company came to me and said "we need someone for a second developer position" that I would say here is the person you need to hire. More often than not I give them a list of people not to waste their time on.
When you help someone get a job I feel that you are potentially risking your reputation. People rely on you for these types of things based on how you perform and want someone like you, why would you risk your reputation that lacks ability, work ethic, brains, passion, or talent?
You are right in that how much others help you has little to do with how much you help others. How much others help you depends on the same factors you use when deciding if you are going to help someone else.
The one thing you left out in your list is probably one of the biggest factors in deciding whether or not to help someone and that is reputation. If you have a solid and respected reputation then people won't mind helping you get the next job. With a good reputation people will even seek you out for a job.
Paul
---------------------------------------
Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!
- Daffy Duck
I have worked with maybe 6 people in 10 years that if my company came to me and said "we need someone for a second developer position" that I would say here is the person you need to hire. More often than not I give them a list of people not to waste their time on.
When you help someone get a job I feel that you are potentially risking your reputation. People rely on you for these types of things based on how you perform and want someone like you, why would you risk your reputation that lacks ability, work ethic, brains, passion, or talent?
You are right in that how much others help you has little to do with how much you help others. How much others help you depends on the same factors you use when deciding if you are going to help someone else.
The one thing you left out in your list is probably one of the biggest factors in deciding whether or not to help someone and that is reputation. If you have a solid and respected reputation then people won't mind helping you get the next job. With a good reputation people will even seek you out for a job.
Paul
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Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!
- Daffy Duck
- Thread starter
- #16
First of all, your nephew may be a manipulator, however, showing that manipulators exists does not show a correlation between manipulation and success. In fact, based off your description of him, I would not describe him as successful.
The flips side of this is that a talented person who completely lacks social skills will also have a difficult time advancing. Offending and/or alienating others will not get you very far.
Accepting help does not make a person a manipulator. In fact, as MDXer pointed out, often times the assistance is earned through ability, work ethic, etc.
I will agree that getting ahead simply by manipulating others to help you would be a skill all its own and can be done (most of us have seen examples at some point), but in my experience, this tends to become obvious in a short period of time and the person never makes it far. How many examples can we really find of people who made it far exclusively by manipulating others?
The flips side of this is that a talented person who completely lacks social skills will also have a difficult time advancing. Offending and/or alienating others will not get you very far.
Probably they helped that somebody out, and that somebody risked his reputation to advocate for the job. If mr. anyone was a pain in the b.., treated other persons like morons etc.. he would not be landing in a good job.
One question, what do you need then? I find it difficult to believe that a total stranger comes to me with the words: "let me help you with your problems", the only person who fits this profile is santa claus with his elves.
Steven
SantaMufasa
Technical User
IMHO, examples of people who have "gotten ahead" are a dime a dozen...examples of people with true character and integrity are the rare and valuable find.
If anyone wants to "get ahead" the right way, then check out the book, Winners Never Cheat: Everyday Values We Learned as Children (But May Have Forgotten) (~$14), by Jon M. Huntsman, Sr. He grew up as a dirt-poor kid, then "got ahead" via hard work and integrity, to become one of the wealthiest, but more importantly, perhaps the most highly respected businessmen in history.
![[santa]](/data/assets/smilies/santa.gif "[santa] [santa]")
Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”
If anyone wants to "get ahead" the right way, then check out the book, Winners Never Cheat: Everyday Values We Learned as Children (But May Have Forgotten) (~$14), by Jon M. Huntsman, Sr. He grew up as a dirt-poor kid, then "got ahead" via hard work and integrity, to become one of the wealthiest, but more importantly, perhaps the most highly respected businessmen in history.
Mufasa(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]
“Beware of those that seek to protect you from harm. The cost will be your freedoms and your liberty.”
shoalcreek
MIS
I think this debate would be better served by incorporating examples of people that we actually know something about--people we know in person, not people we read about in newspapers.
I do have one question about Huntsman: Why would a supposedly honest man ever work for Richard Nixon?
shoalcreek
MIS
This is why networking is generally a waste of time. Looking for a job is much like being in the water after the Titanic is sunk. The people in the lifeboats don't care if you live or die.
This is a good point. How does one get a good reputation? How does one get people to speak positively of them?
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