Has anyone else noticed... (Lack of skills) 6

[Albion]

Has anyone else noticed that the IT field is getting filled up with people who haven't a clue about computers? I have a friend who was a proxy administrator a year or so back. He'd always complain about how all the help desk issues would get dumped on him because no one in help desk had a clue about the problems at hand. It got to the point where he couldn't do his own job because he was doing the jobs of helpdesk all the time. No wonder he quit after 6 months. I had to deal with an "MCSE" who once came to me and asked what an "Insert CD" message was. What is going through the heads of these HR people? Do they see a few certs on a resume and hire these people to fill some quota? Really, no wonder so many good IT people are out of work, they're giving all the jobs to idiots who'll work for minimum wage.

Has anyone else noticed this trend in the It industry?

-al

 

[Rhys666]

OK then, I havn't had my '2 cents' worth yet. I do know people who during lean times have used books etc to learn enough to get jobs they would not have otherwise been considered for, (all in IT), but they've then followed this thru' by learning what they need to when offered an opportunity.

There is always going to be someone who knows more than you, and there's always going to be someone who knows less than you. I don't think either of these is a problem as long as the one knowing more is willing to pass knowledge on, and the one knowing less is willing to, (and capable of), learning.

So, to continue the thread, is it really a lack of skills or a lack of ability to learn skills?


Rhys
Thought out... Maybe,
Opinionated... Probably
But it is only an opinion!

 

[PCLine]

Hmmmmm,

To suck seed you must have;
Desire, ability and opportunity...
or know somebody...

It's not what you know it's who you know that counts

That particular saying used to irritate me when I was a young 'un. Today it !£$%ing irritates me because I seem to be forever "haunted by it".

Chow.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Rhys666 - I don't think that anyone would even consider hiring one who has a lack of ability to learn skills. Given the dynamic nature of IT, learning new skills is an absolute necessity. The skills you use today will be obsolete tomorrow.

So IMHO, the question is: it a lack of skills, or are we (the company) willing to wait and pay for the training and time to acquire those skills? What about this person is such that we would be willing to invest in time/training? Since the company is investing more in this person, as opposed to hiring the one would already has the desired skill, they should have reasonable expectation of a higher return. What will constitute the higher return?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Rhys666]

I always liked a version of that saying a very cynical friend of mine came up with...

It's not what you know or who you know that counts, it's what you know about the who in question that's most important...




Rhys
Thought out... Maybe,
Opinionated... Probably
But it is only an opinion!

 

[PCLine]

Hi Cajun
Your opinion seems to be based on sound logic and reason ~ sadly those are concepts that are noted in the UK by therir absence.

You don't have to search the net too hard to find people highlighting a lack of skills at all levels of UK service and Industry eg.

http://www.startinbusiness.co.uk/features/news/pgc_130503.htm

All the best.
ps. Nice one Rhys
:-D

 

[CajunCenturion]

<sarcasm>
PCLine - And you think the UK has some exclusivity on &quot;those concepts by their absence&quot;?
</sarcasm>


Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[PCLine]

<sincerity>No, I think the problem is worse in France</sincerity>

;-)

All the best.

 

[ghijkl]

Paradoxically, it is not the technical knowledge that counts. That knowledge has to change every now and then, what with new languages, new databases, new operating systems.
Knowledge can be gained of the methodologies - Codd, Date, Gane & Sarson, Booch,
Modular, Structured, Object oriented, Excelarator et al.
Same for the languages - Assembler, Fortran, Cobol, Basic, Lisp, Script languages (Primos CPL, IBM CLIST, Java, Python ...)
They change too.
Same for databases - Adabas, Total/Supra, IDMS, IMS, Pick, SQL, ...
This technical knowledge can be taught, parrot fashion.
If you are placing a high emphasis on the amount of knowledge displayed by the applicant, you may be part of the cause of the 90% deadwood in IT.
The essential IT skill required to perform the task of programming is analysis. The ability to understand the user's domain. And the ability to extract the information from the user to gain this knowledge. Implementation of practical solutions is the natural consequence.
I find very few analytical people in the corporates. They dont really fit. And thats the problem - the analytical types are bloody useless at shopfront activities. In fact theyre not too good at any undemanding repetitive task.
So business avoids employing the very people who can reduce the total cost of ownership.

 

[aixmurderer]

ghijkl - you got it exactly.

Many out there who can talk the talk, unfortunately very few can walk it.

The unfortunate fact is simply that with all the knowledge in the world but not knowing how to apply it you may as well know nothing.

Thus, so much for certifications, it mostly only tests your memory retention, it does not aid much in teaching analytical skills.

IBM Certified Confused - MQSeries
IBM Certified Flabbergasted - AIX 5 pSeries System Administration
MS Certified Windblows Rebooter

 

[dogbert2]

Well, analyzing problems is something that most people just HATE to do. To become a good troubleshooter in I.T. can take years of hard work (or until the light bulb comes on).

A trend which a lot of firms see is a complete lack of troubleshooting skills among I.T. employees (case in point, the county I.T. department where a friend of mine works), he tells me that since there is a lack of skills, the worker drones find it easier to just reload the system from a ghosted image, rather than to find and eliminate the actual problem.

Now, depending on what a machine is used for (lets say <n> servers all doing the same thing), it MIGHT not be cost effective (from a time standpoint) to bother troubleshooting a problem to the nTH degree, and you might just load a new image. On other systems, I can assure you this isn't a option.

The skill set is like everything else, it only comes with long and usually hard knocks on the job (I know this one for a fact)

 

[CajunCenturion]

One of the biggest deficiencies that I've encountered is the inability of techs to distinguish between symptoms and the underlying problems. Besides lacking basic problem solving skills, the tech further exacerbate the situation by focusing on the symptoms.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[edfair]

And techs don't have the best people skills, so they have problems communicating with the users, so they don't get the best descriptions of the symptoms to start with. And rather than ask the right questions they proceed with the reload.

So, with the progression of the industry, will any tech ever become competent?

Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[CajunCenturion]

As a general rule, I would not expect the tech to ever become competent, and that is more a reflection on the industry, rather than that of the individual. Certainly a higher degree of problem solving skills, and to some degree people skills can be learned and honed with professional education and instruction.

To return to the days where this career was considered a profession, we first have to set standards that are commensurate with that of a profession. Most people will consider doctors, lawyers, and accountants, among other, as professionals. What do these professions do to earn and keep that status that the IT professional does not expect?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[edfair]

A degree from a 4 or 8 year school? Professional group membership? Government licensing? 50K to 100K school loans?

I'm more into the idea of apprenticeship. But since there are so many models of equipment a professional will never work on or need knowledge of I don't think the testing that covers that specific equipment is needed.

I really don't think there is an answer at this point.

Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[dogbert2]

Well, there could be a number of ways to do this, for long term veterans of I.T., it shouldn't be a problem, but in terms of 'do we NEED another piece of paper' to hang on the wall?

I don't know what the answer is, since we all seem to agree that 4 year programs (bachelor's) seem to be somewhat lacking in substance, certs can be braindumped (except the CCIE, which i've never seen anyone do), and lets face it, some people just don't belong in the field (I wouldn't make a good auto mechanic, and i'll be the first to admit so).

shrug!

 

[aixmurderer]

The fact of the matter is that I still not have encountered a certification course which taught me anything more than the mere basics. Anything more advanced (typically the day-to-day system and application problems encountered) usually requires leaning on others experience, typically found at a forum like Tek-tips. The trick is to know where/how to search for this information, and to initially figure out what the problem is you are chasing down.

edfair - agree with you on the apprenticeship bit, probably because I came initially from an aviation background, where I was taught practical troubleshooting down to component level on top of the usual theoretical stuff. There is simply no substitute for being dumped into the deep-end and learning hands-on how to fix something. Saw many in that field who had no problems with the theoretical side of things, but just could not cope with the practical side. These people faced up to the facts and usually dropped out within the first 6 months of an apprenticeship.

The same goes for IT, the unfortunate fact is that some people would like to be IT specialists, but the reality is that they just can't cut it when it comes to applying themselves. You cannot teach someone common sense/logic/troubleshooting, that needs to come from within.

IBM Certified Confused - MQSeries
IBM Certified Flabbergasted - AIX 5 pSeries System Administration
MS Certified Windblows Rebooter

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

ghijkl - good point. If I was hiring a programmer and was going to test them I'd test them less in the syntax of a language and more in process of breaking down problems. My Designing a Database solution test for my MCSD was easy. I could have passed it almost without knowing SQL Server because it was mostly generic concepts, that sadly sometimes are completely missed. People might know the &quot;HOW&quot; but sometimes never bother to learn the &quot;WHY&quot;

CajunCenturion - &quot;..the tech further exacerbate the situation by focusing on the symptoms.&quot;

Yea I've seen a tech load a ghost 5 times and get frustrated with the same error coming up every time. I asked him why he keeps doing the same thing when he knows it breaks. At that point I had to teach this guy the concept of selective interchange.

I'm guilty of labeling us (IT people) as generally not good at people skills. This being said people skills is like anything else. Most people can learn them and you learn them the same way you learn anything else. Practise!

edfair - good point. At my last perminate job (where I was an instructor) we went to the government and pointed out there was a lack of entry level IT people. Vast majority are college grades or very self motivated people that didn't have a degree but got their foot in the door some how and go from there. We started up a trainee program designed for disadvantaged young adults around the age of 18. 1 year program where they got both education on all aspects of IT and work experience to boot. Now in Australia you'll often see an apprenticeship for 1 year pay a low wage (5k for the year.) We provided education and ~15k for the year. At the end of the year we usually employeed one of them (normally about 5-8 of them) and helped the others into jobs. Large majority of them have gone on to do well for their age in IT and not having a degree. I like this model. You really don't need a degree to install XP and put in lan cards etc but some training for this level of work is a help.

I'd have to disagree with &quot;You cannot teach someone common sense/logic/troubleshooting&quot;

For the average person you can teach them anything. Logic is easy to learn you just have to practice. I'm REALLY bad with remembering names and I've learned how to increase that ability. I'm also very bad playing the bass guitar but blisters and practice make me better at that. I increased my interpersonal/communication skills through things like teaching, the first train the trainer coarses I did was for Community CPR. For memory I, don't laugh, have a program I wrote where I would display n number of pictures with names under them them and spend x amount of time trying to remember their name then would be flashed a face and have to enter their name.

It all just takes work. I know what I'm bad in and I decide how important it is to improve then invest a level of effort to get better.

Thinking about it, the original post, if someone came up to me with a simple problem I usually think to myself &quot;Is this guy an idiot&quot; but teaching taught me this would be a bad thing to actually say. I then would explain what needs to be done, make sure that they understood. I might direct them to another person to do that if I couldn't. If they consistantly showed a lack of effort on their part to come up to speed thats when I'd have to recomend that they be fired.

 

[edemiere]

Well, I would have to say that nothing can replace experience.

As aixmurderer said, most courses are there to take your money and to throw fundamentals at you that you could easily get for 1/100 the cost by buying a book and studying it.

It's a sad state of affairs when just because someone has certifications on their resume that its like &quot;oh, oh, look at all the pretty wording, let's hire this guy&quot;. When in reality I could just list those certifications on my resume and be able to do the same job (and probably better because of years of experience) even though I don't have those certifications.

Remember one thing:

&quot;Experience is what you get when you don't get what you expected&quot;.

Food for thought.

Cheers!

 

[xutopia]

&quot;Good judgment comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgment.&quot; ~ Rita Mae Brown

Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
********************************

 

[ghijkl]

While experience teaches that which was not taught, i would not like to leave this thread on this complacent note. There is something fundamentally wrong with IT and i want to find out what it is. One thing which i think has a major effect is tertiary IT education - and primary and secondary for that matter.


I have always had this nagging feeling that tertiary institutions were teaching computing from the wrong angle.


I always assumed that it was because i had a little prejudice, since i am almost entirely on-the-job trained. My first experience with software was as a trainee for BHP. The course they ran in-house became the CDI course later. But when i look back over the graduates i have encountered, i have had to spend a long time de-educating them of the illusions their teachers had given them. Once over the illusions, many were outstanding. But many moved to management before the disillusioning process that happens when you first understand the concept of programming when the target is a real-world user.

So i think that maybe the tertiary institutions view IT more as an abstract science than an applied science.

The quickest graduates to assimilate were Caulfield Tech - when it was at Caulfield. And CDI course people (or is that personal prejuduce again)
The slowest were Melbourne Uni - or was it that they moved more quickly to management?
I apologize to all the brilliant ones who were naturally good regardless of institution.

IT is an applied science. This implies that it is better taught via apprenticeship, or traditional technical college.