Has anyone else noticed... (Lack of skills) 6

[Albion]

Has anyone else noticed that the IT field is getting filled up with people who haven't a clue about computers? I have a friend who was a proxy administrator a year or so back. He'd always complain about how all the help desk issues would get dumped on him because no one in help desk had a clue about the problems at hand. It got to the point where he couldn't do his own job because he was doing the jobs of helpdesk all the time. No wonder he quit after 6 months. I had to deal with an "MCSE" who once came to me and asked what an "Insert CD" message was. What is going through the heads of these HR people? Do they see a few certs on a resume and hire these people to fill some quota? Really, no wonder so many good IT people are out of work, they're giving all the jobs to idiots who'll work for minimum wage.

Has anyone else noticed this trend in the It industry?

-al

 

[Serbtastic]

While working in a networking technical support position a couple of years ago I had a call from a sys admin from somewhere in the south (SC or FL I think).

He was having problems with one client on his network, so I asked him to try pinging the client from the server.

His response: How do I do that?

 

[jrbarnett]

Another job interview I had last year was for a 1 year post created as the result of 5 months of temping I had in a place - my boss was so impressed with me.
I found on the afternoon of the day of the interview I didn't get the job and was given my notice there and then.

Step forward 7 months I was in the area and popped in to say Hello as others kept emailing me. My ex boss took me out to lunch and admitted they had hired the wrong person, this new guy while not incompetent, wasn't as good as I was and as a result the backlog wasn't getting cleared as fast, so they needed to do overtime frequently.

(quick note: I have been unemployed since and am still looking for a job).

John

 

[PCLine]

Has anyone else noticed that the IT field is getting filled up with people who haven't a clue about computers?

Hi guys,
The IT industry is to blame (and industries that use IT).

From the perspective of IT and Ethics, it appears that what we are really talking about is whether it is ethical to employ someone to "do a job" without equiping them for the complete range of taks that they might face.

Employers (IMHO) have trended towards employing people to do specific jobs (or training them up to do the specific tasks) with no thought to future training, development or progression within the company/group.

Can we really blame guys who are "in over their heads"?

I am sure it hasn't escaped the attention of the IT literate people here, but there are courses upon courses for the IT Administrator from specific Networks, OS's, E-mail clients and other "sundry" business applications.

Is it really no wonder that you tend to come across people who don't know how to "ping a server" ~ when 98% of their job is more likely than not run-of -the-mill (that they have been trained to do).

Dare I say, there has been a shift in emphasis that has turned previously "skilled" jobs into "semi-skilled" jobs ~ but that is due in no small measure to the advances made within the IT industry.

So the next time some "IT Administrator" is asking for help, give 'em a break. Not everyone has had the opportunity to "run the bases" ~ most people are out their "fielding".

All the best.

 

[BJCooperIT]

A star for an excellent point PCLine. Some individuals are not incompetent by choice. They have tasks thrust upon them without proper training and because they make a few good guesses the boss feels they can do the job.

[sup]Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time. ~Steven Wright[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
[sup]When posting code, please use TGML to help readability. Thanks![sup]

 

[namida]

I saw some other IT graduates here who types like 1 character per 3 seconds with two fingers and some who do not know how to save/print documents in MS Word.

I was in a degree course for IT.they don't teach anything except theories eg. network management and yet never teaches how to actually manages it!

The problem is, tho I'm interested in IT I don't go to the point of buying Pc.Coms, reading tech news and all sorts.

and then I graduated and look at the requirements to apply for jobs.. and they state like 10 advanced skills that I should have.. which I never learnt before. eg. I Learnt how to make classes in Java and they're like asking the skills to make web icq! The requirements in the countries in my area is almost the same with US, Canada, etc.

But since I've been there I sort of feel it, especially I'm in an Asian country. The colleges' facilities are open until like 9 PM and there's always some problem with them.

You can't really learn something completely new since they don't have the software unless it's just theory. We can't even afford MS Office.. with it being a few hundred bucks (even the student price) and the normal graduate salary is like .. 1200.. so if you buy a JAVA book of 200 bucks and MSOffice it's pretty tight.

I am still wondering how people in anywhere else manages to learn the cool set of skills... with that sort of skills like the job posts in this country, I could go work in US.
and earn four times with the same figure of salary!

*stressed*

 

[svanels]

Yes it is easy to complain and rant about the lack of skills of others, but if you put to much effort in looking what others are not doing you might forget that you have to work also.

nice points of view pcline and infoman67

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[dgillz]

I blame a lot of HR people for this. HR people are about the LAST people you would want to interview techies, but they get the resumes first and screen out many qualified candidates, without having a clue how to effectively do it.

This is why on my job searches I send resumes to decision makers, not HR people, if at all possible.

Nor is this limited to the IT field. When I was in accounting, I had HR people giving me resumes to review for a position we were trying to hire, only to find out that many of the resumes I'd rather see were being witheld from me.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Exact Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.trianglepartners.com

 

[svanels]

In this modern world HRM (Human Resource Management) is not a responsibility of the HR department anymore. Looking at some of the posts, I come to the conclusion that the stone age still exists in the "Developped Countries"

Line management has the resources, thus also the management. The HR dept takes care of the company rules and guidelines, the pay, the administrative and legal stuff etc. Also they collect the resumes of potential candidates.
If a Dept need a new employee, the HR dept should make the necessary arrangements to comunicate this to the outside world, and communicate the rules (pay, bonus) etc.

To actually employ, this decision is from line management, (your boss), so if the candidate is an "as" he was selected by a bigger "as", who surely is not from HR.
But it is easy to blame everything on HR, especially when the rules are not clear and well defined, and gulfbuddies etc. are being brought in by some bigshot in the company.

If you had the opportunity to employ somebody, wouldn't it be your mom, brother, best friend or uncle?



Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[Albion]

"So the next time some "IT Administrator" is asking for help, give 'em a break. Not everyone has had the opportunity to "run the bases" ~ most people are out their "fielding"."

Come on people we're not talking about a peewee football team here where coach won't play a kid because he's too small or not good enough. We're talking about multi-million and multi-billion dollar industries that rely on these computers to keep their infrastructures operating profitably. We're hiring people to fill the position of keeping these computers running to peek efficiency who don't have the knowledge or skills that are required to do that job. What does that equate to? It equates to these companies losing money, which in this economy they cannot afford. I just don't understand why so many people have so much sympathy for those who apply for and take on a job they cannot accomplish. If a person puts "I know Windows 2000 Server" on their resume they better know Windows 2000 Server, not just know of it.

-al

 

[svanels]

But it looks like the HRM strategy in that company is based on peewee football team. Any idiot can come in to lie about his education, experience etc.. and pull a bunch of certificates and diplomas.
If you are not trained to interview and weed out impostors, slackers, lunatics, alcoholics, thieves etc. it will be peewee football team.
The biggest idiot is the one who hired.

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[PCLine]

Albion (IS/IT--Manageme) Jun 4, 2003
"But Albion, do I notice a slight trace of "I went through Hell, so they should too"? "

That wasn't really my point, although there is a slight bit of that in there. My point was more in the line of, "You can't get to home plate without first going through first, second, and third base."

Albion it was your "bad" analogy that I poached.

We're hiring people to fill the position of keeping these computers running to peek efficiency who don't have the knowledge or skills that are required to do that job.

You are sadly mistaken. Companies see the bottom line as the be-and-end-all. The "unqualified" techies you are talking about will be employed in the main by small to middling size companies who are run by people who only undrstand about direct costs ie. salaries. All too often they are blind to the indirect costs associated with poorly mainted ICT structures.

All the best.

 

[PCLine]

*oops ~ I lost half of the quote...

We're talking about multi-million and multi-billion dollar industries that rely on these computers to keep their infrastructures operating profitably. We're hiring people to fill the position of keeping these computers running to peek efficiency who don't have the knowledge or skills that are required to do that job.

You are sadly mistaken. Companies see the bottom line as the be-and-end-all. The "unqualified" techies you are talking about will be employed in the main by small to middling size companies who are run by people who only undrstand about direct costs ie. salaries. All too often they are blind to the indirect costs associated with poorly mainted ICT structures.

All the best.

Regards.

 

[dogbert2]

Well, I tend to agree, it's not a easy thing when a company
gets 100 resumes for a single potision, however, i've helped with crafting ads and this is the format I usually
suggest to the bossman:

1. - skills the candidate MUST possess

2. - skills you would like, but not fit into #1

A lot of places do such a piss poor job of writing
employment ads, that a lot of people simply get
turned off by the ads themselves.

Here is a example:

The Ideal candidate will possess a Degree in IS/IT/CS (AA or better) or equiv. education and work exp. (substitute 1.5 years of work exp for 1 year of college here). Need
skills in project management, able to work effectively with co-workers, etc.

I think you get the idea here.

btw, a unqualified person usually winds up costing a company a large amount of $$$ and/or heartache, plus after the person gets fired, the company has to start over again
(not fun at all).

 

[wolluf]

The year 2000 'bug' caused a huge influx of 'lack of skills' in the testing area.

As to hiring - don't know about US, but in UK its a lottery. Everything (permanent & contract) goes through agencies. Lots of agencies advertise the same job (in different guises). Agencies select who gets interviewed (many work on random selection of 3 CVs from the 100 received if client want to interview 3 basis). Then you get to what's been covered so eloquently above (HR etc).

As Ed said earlier - its always been like this - but getting worse. Everywhere I've worked in last 20+ years has one person 'doing the job, plus several other people's job', with 5 supervising and 10 looking on! (if this reminds you of the joke, how many IT workers does it take....)

I'm sure other industries have similar tales.

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

svanels - Exactly. If you see in your organisation that unqualiftied people are doing the hiring then don't blame them....blame yourself. Really if you are a manager and you need a body under you and goto HR and say I need 1 more person and I have the authorisation from corporate and let HR do the hiring and just hand you a body then you deserve what you get.

When I was in a perminate role we had the HR manager there for 1 reason....she was a psychologist and handled the people skills portion of the interview. Just like I wouldn't want her to do the technical portion of the interview I wouldn't want most propelor heads doing the people skills portion.

Certification is just a general indicator. Given 5 equal resumes but three has certification (I'm not just talking coarses) and I have to narrow it down three well sorry then 2 without certification have to get dropped. They may be better but I'm in the portion where I'm filtering out. Filtering out sometimes means your filter out qualified persons. Funny thing is that Microsoft Certification for admin side is adaptive. So if you know what you are doing the tests are not only easy but don't take long.

....
time for home I'll continue this later. 8)

 

[lionelhill]

(1) HR do influence things in most companies and other institutions. They usually screen CVs (if agency not being used to do same thing). Unfortunately they usually know nothing about post and screen on certification/what they had for lunch/which forms they've lost etc. etc. Mostly the local experts MUST work through HR and can't influence this process in any way.

(2) People in wrong post is also our fault for failing to differentiate different types of tech expert. Help desk, system admin, installing a PC, and writing software are very very different jobs, but all are perceived as IT-"engineer" by non-IT people. It's a bit like employing a properly trained TV-aerial installation "engineer" to repair a hospital nmr machine's electronics and then complaining. But while each of us tries to inflate his job a bit by coming up with a very technical title, how is any normal person supposed to tell the difference between all these different "engineers" and IT experts?

(3) Even in writing software I get upset people don't differentiate between the chap who can write a simple script in Perl to fish out strings from a text file, and the person to whom I can say "In my n-dimensional data-sets I have n-dimensional patches of similarity (but not identity) that I would like to find...."
Basically the Perl script is a subset of the 2nd question, but it wouldn't be fair to get the same chap/chappess to tackle both tasks...

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

"Mostly the local experts MUST work through HR and can't influence this process in any way."

This is sadly a common attitude in organizations. As a consultant/contractor (note I disagree with the definitions provided for these terms earlier) I've got many jobs because during the interview process when asked why I would be good for a position (yes I have to go through full interviews as a private consultant/contractor) I reply "When I was an instructor we targeted organizations that needed a skill set changes. We then customized courseware and provided on going, on site consulting and guidance. As an independent and external individual I could more easily question why certain processes are done without fear of internal political issues. Often it is the "We've always done it this way" processes that no one wants to tackle that need tackling the most."

Fact. You say you have a problem with the way HR is handling the hiring process but you have no influence in the process.

Well if you have a problem in the company and just throw up your hands and say "I can't influence this" then you are at fault. Plain and simple. If your company is ISO 9001 certified then you HAVE to have a way to influence this. If you us this power or not is up to you. But if there is a problem and management does not see it as a problem then you need to educate them. It is called process improvement. I know many companies that require employees to submit process improvement suggestions every month as part of their job specification.

Solutions are various but it sounds like you need to have some IT people more involved with the CV screening and interview process for IT positions.

 

[Onyxpurr]

First of all the HR department pretty much knows nothing about the technology lingo needed to make a decision about who to interview and not. It's the responsibility of the IT manager to give specific instructions as to what their looking for.

2nd of all, it's EXTREMLY hard to get into IT as a graduate, even at decent pay. Unfortunately some people do lie to get a leg up, but some grads are hired into positions beyond their limitations because a company thinks "cool, cheaper labor than someone with 15 years of experience" and then throws them to the wolves.

Not that I don't agree that there seems to be an influx of morons from EVERY area of industry (as a file clerk temp I stunned my former employer by filing correctly), but for most companies hiring us computer geeks is a new thing and very confusing. Not to mention that IT depts have to struggle to get a decent wage by trying to influence someone who has no clue about it (HR).

The university at which you get your degree is important too. I stunned my IT department with amount of "hands-on" programming I did.

 

[svanels]

"First of all the HR department pretty much knows nothing about the technology lingo needed to make a decision about who to interview and not. It's the responsibility of the IT manager to give specific instructions as to what their looking for."

Exactly, if the IT Manager or whoevers is in charge of the IT dept is not able to write a proper job or function description, nor can make a workplan for a future or current co-worker, nor anticipate the training/skills needed for his kingdom, you open the gate for other incompetents (the first one is the manager).


Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[flyboytim]

"If you had the opportunity to employ somebody, wouldn't it be your mom, brother, best friend or uncle?" - as Steven van Els said - Hell, no! I'd choose the candidate who could demonstrate the best potential, or failing that, the one candidate with the best personal presentation and people skills, and including of course, any member of my family who fitted the above criteria.