Gender bias in IT 5

[Lozbinator]

Hi All,

I just wanted to ask you your opinions about how men and women may be treated differently / have different opportunities / have different expectations / behave differently etc within the IT industry?

Do you think there is any difference? For exampe, Do men find that they are expected to know in depth, technical things more than women? Do women find they are mistaken as administrative assistants, or find it difficult being taken seriously?

And if you do feel that being male or female makes a difference with regard to your job, how do you work around any problems you encounter (if problems arise)??

 

[BJCooperIT]

guestgulkan:
Your observation is correct if there is a personality conflict. However, this is not always the case. I have also had the pleasure of working with other women where things went as smooth as clockwork.

I, too, have been the token female. I have been underpaid despite a heavier task load than my male counterparts. I was manhandled in the warehouse to the amusement of my manager in days when there was no such thing as sexual harrassment.

One additional factor that still exists today is the notion that it is better for the company to not promote a woman because she will just get married/pregnant and leave the company. This mindset is still very much in existence.

[sup]Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time. ~Steven Wright[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
[sup]When posting code, please use TGML to help readability. Thanks![sup]

 

[guestgulkan]

Craig0201

Those observations I mentioned are as follows:

1. Armed Forces (UK)
A lot of women involved here. As you can imagine a lot of sexism, and macho bullshit involved.

2. Time spent at an electronic PCB manufacturing comapny.
Lot of women involved here too (probably more than men).

3. Current job - a group of Not for Profit/Charity organisations. Lots of women involved here too.


It is possible that men have the same working togther problems as women - but being male I probably view it in a different context ??

 

[xutopia]

I find a mixed group works better than a group made up of a single sex.

Too many men together get dumb. As we can see with the military men that do not have women around to put them back on track become inclined to play with huge penile-shaped items and throw them at people that they think have bigger "ones" than they do They also start watching a lot of sports all while getting fat on peanuts and beer. A paradox some might say that the fatter they are the more they love [watching] sports.

A bunch of women together get fat. As we can see in some female magazines their life revolves around how to find a guy and what flavor of ice cream tastes better. As they add lots of high sugar and fat content in their diet they love more and more the skinny dits they put on their magazine. The more they want to become like her the more they eat ice cream.

Alone we are doomed! The only way out of here is to find ways to work together all while respecting one another!

The opposite sex brings the best out of each of us!

Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
==========================

 

[Craig0201]

Indeed. PEOPLE have trouble working together.

Craig

 

[Craig0201]

Please note: dictionary definition of sexism....

"Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender."

Note the inclusion of attitudes. Hence the statement was and is sexist.

Craig

 

[Lozbinator]

Wow, its interesting to read so many different viewpoints.

Here's a question: Say you _do_ feel that you work in an environment where one gender is more predominant/favoured than the other - you are the 'token' - what do you do? How do you deal with the issues that will inevitably arise?

What issues have any of you experienced if you were the 'token' male or female? And how have you dealt with them?

How have such issues made you feel?

Just some thoughts Thank you all for the interesting posts.

 

[seanjohnstone]

I work for a very large mechanical engineering company where about 90% of employees are male. We only have about 6 software developers (of which I am a senior).

In the past few years, our company has squandered a fortune on selective recruitment and positive discrimination (politely named "Diversity&quot which has consequently seen almost all new employees being female or from ethnic minority backgrounds (our company is mostly white).

As a result, there are now FIVE times more female employees in managerial/leadership roles than there are men - by proportion of the company makeup. We have seen people employeed purely for tokenistic reasons "because their face fits" and we have seen gross discrimination and incompetence in a lot of "short-listed" employees.

All applications for jobs are first passed by our (female dominated) H.R. department which selectively filters applications to ensure that a fair proportion of genders and races are passed on for interview. I know this because a close friend works in H.R. and has to ensure that the "batch" of applicants is 50/50 male to female and 50/50 ethnic.

What awful times we live in. And what a downright insult to those ladies and ethnics who are genuinely skilled and talented.

Sean.

 

[xutopia]

Sean,

I agree that it may seem unfair at first glance to have a situation where we hold the hands of minorities to allow them access to things they normally wouldn't. But all in all this is only in answer to the unfair treatment they've been given in the past.

It's a form or societal retribution. In the past we've closed doors for these minorities, given them the shit jobs that doesnt' pay and then wonder why their children are uneducated and frustrated individuals.

If you stop people from having good jobs that pay good money their gifted kids cannot get higher education and get the real jobs get filled by caucassians that are not so deserving of their statute.

I call this a rebalancing of the swing of justice. We pay for our ancestors mistakes in regard to gender and race discrimination. We must learn to be inclusive where our parents weren't. We must learn to bring people up to par when we can. It helps us and our kids down the road.

Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
==========================

 

[InternVirtuoso]

It seems that at the company I intern for, more women are promoted to managerial positions than men are, but more men get awards. This changes at the very top level though, where most(all?) of the executives are men.

 

[rtrek]

Descrimination either way is still descrimination. All it does is build resentment and that is not good in the long run.

 

[sha76]

I think political correctness can be taken way too far sometimes. Yes, we should give all people an equal chance, but at the end of the day you still need someone who can do the job. I don't know if it still applies, but I'm pretty sure all UK companies over a certain size had to fulfill "quotas" for the percentage of people they employed who were from minority ethnic groups, female, disabled, etc. Personally I want a job on the basis of my skills & abilities, not because of of who I am. Is it really any better for a position to be given to me because I'm female than it is for it to be given to an equally qualified candidate because he's part of the old boy's network?

Xutopia{/b], I do see your point about about having to redress an imbalance that's been going on for generations. It does seem a shame if the only way to do it is with further discrimination, but I admit that, no I don't know of any alternatives. I just hope that most HR departments handle things more intelligently than the factory where I used to work, which put Muslim & Serbian refugees on the same shift!

Sharon

 

[CajunCenturion]

sha76 - Although you question the intelligence of the HR department to put Muslim and Serbian refugess on the same shift, isn't that the non-discriminatory thing to do.

After all, wouldn't it be a violation to consider these nationality and religion factors when building work schedules? Especially if both parties requested that shift.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[sha76]

Sorry, should probably have elaborated a bit: It wasn't so much the issue of political correctness, at the time there was still full scale war in the Balkans. These people may have no longer been in their home country, but they were still very much at war with each other, we quite regularly had the police round in riot vans to split up the fighting, and that was when a neutral member of staff hadn't intervened first (and standing in front of a pack of angry men with knives is hardly in a production managers job description!)

I guess being fair to everybody is rarely as simple as we beleive it should be.

Sharon

 

[BJCooperIT]

True Story #1
For a brief time in 1972 I worked for a german car company here in the states. Most Data Processing groups were still searching for their token female but this shop had all female programmers! The reason? The programming manager was gay and at that period in time every man that interviewed for the position suddenly withdrew his application.

True Story #2
In 1973 I worked for a *major* pharmaceutical corporation. Here in the USA there was an Equal Employment Opportunity push to hire minorities (females and non-caucasion). One of the top level executives had a secretary who was hired under the EEO quotas much to his dismay. It wasn't that he had anything against this girl personally - it was that she was incompetent and a terrible employee. She could only type 35wpm, she spent hours on the phone, she took 2 hour lunches, she was always late, she was loud and rude. She knew the circumstances under which she had been hired and constantly pushed her luck. She made it known that if she were to be fired she would sue for discrimination, something this very high profile corporation did not want.

There was a hush-hush executive meeting in her boss's office and she was told that they were not to be disturbed. About 15 minutes before quiting time she barged into this meeting demanding that he sign some papers. He was upset and asked her why she had ignored his instructions. Her reply? "You have to do it now. I plan on being out sick tomorrow!"

[sup]Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time. ~Steven Wright[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
[sup]When posting code, please use TGML to help readability. Thanks![sup]

 

[guestgulkan]

That is the problem inherent with 'positive' discrimination.
Hiring someone like that does not do any side any favours.
As I matter of fact, it simply makes matters worse and IMO plays into the hands of the negative discriminators as they will say that it shows they were right all along.

I hate filling in job applications that have 'Ethnicity' monitoring questions.

 

[CajunCenturion]

"I guess being fair to everybody is rarely as simple as we believe it should be."

How true, how true !!

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[xutopia]

I think total fairness is impossible because of our human nature and our propensity for being xenophobe.

We can only learn to be better every chance we have! In this case I think that boosting the chances of minorities doesn't hurt too much.

It reminds me of Michael Moore who only hires black people. It is actually illegal to hire only white people without giving a chance to non-caucassians but he is doing the opposite to reverse the trend a little bit. I find it hilarious!

Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
==========================

 

[palbano]

>> I think total fairness is impossible

I agree, but not for your reasons. Try to get 100 people to reach consensus on the definition of fair. If you can't define it then it certainly is impossible.

That why it is called Equal Opportunity not Fair Opportunity
;-)

-pete

 

[rtrek]

Then Xutopia, you've never not been hired just because you are one race. Isn't that what we want to get away from?

"...doesn't hurt too much."

That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.

I've never owned slaves, I've never descriminated in my life. What did I do to deserve being descriminated against? NOT ONE THING!!!

 

[sha76]

rtrek - I'd be very suprised if any of us have ever owned slaves! As far as I am aware neither have any of my direct ancestors, however the society we live in is shaped by it's history and whether that's slavery, encouraging immigration from far parts of the British empire to provide factory workers or something else, we have to accept that an imbalance has been created and needs to be redressed.
Just because we didn't cause the problem doesn't mean we can ignore it.

Sharon