Gender bias in IT 5

[Lozbinator]

Hi All,

I just wanted to ask you your opinions about how men and women may be treated differently / have different opportunities / have different expectations / behave differently etc within the IT industry?

Do you think there is any difference? For exampe, Do men find that they are expected to know in depth, technical things more than women? Do women find they are mistaken as administrative assistants, or find it difficult being taken seriously?

And if you do feel that being male or female makes a difference with regard to your job, how do you work around any problems you encounter (if problems arise)??

 

[ecobb]

I agree, machteld. Attitude, work ethics, dependability, and pride in their work are what make an employee (good or bad). I've seen women who could run circles around guys with twice the experience, and vice versa. Why? Beacuse they wanted to. They had the drive and the desire to excel in their job. As Newtt pointed out, they are the 20% doing 80% of the work.

Most of the time, a good boss/manager will see this and realize who the good employees are. Unfortunately, there are those who can't see past gender, and that makes it hard on everyone.

Hope This Helps!

Ecobb
- I hate computers!

 

[cian]

>>>Funny you mention that. I have been emailing on technical stuff with a guy for a long time, for weeks he thought I was a man eventhough I used the name Maggie, so I assumed he was aware of the fact. I asked him why 'Maggie' didn't ring a bell before... well, the asnwer came down to what you descripe!
>>Although he perfectly knew Maggie is not a regular name for a man... something in his mind prevented him to come up with the only logical conclusion, which was that he was probably discussing technicall stuff with a female creature called Maggie.


There's a couple of people here on TT who I was CONVINVED were female only to discover they were actually male. And they are among the most knowledgable, helpful and respected members on TT. Sex has nothing to do with, only individual attitudes.




- É -

http://www.ssi-developer.net/

 

[Kavius]

People have mentioned that the equal opportunity regulation stupidity (yes I feel comfortable calling it that) causes males to not trust the females in the same position (only got the job because of required quotas), SQLSister mentioned that women sleeping with the boss undermines their position in the workplace. I have one other:

Women undermine women in the workplace by trying to over compensate.

A couple of the women here, mentioned that they have had to work harder to prove themselves in the workplace, and good for them for pulling it off. I can think of one case that had me a little prejudiced against working with women for a long time (probably still does).

About 2 years ago I was working with a small group (2F, 3M) on a development project. We had the design and were beginning on the production. All of the members of the group were strong leaders with good ideas; this meant that everyone was more than willing to share their ideas; and everyone was more than willing to shoot each others ideas down.

Note: I am glossing over the entirely stupid power play that came about because of this. The stated "cause" is more interesting.

For a time this worked quite effectively, we discussed ideas and better ways of doing things. One of the female members began to feel very threatened everytime one of her ideas was shot down and soon began to be very agressive. Somehow she managed getting it on paper that she was in charge of the group (though from conception this was never to happen) and began informing all of the male members that any of their new ideas "were not allowed".

What started as a really effective team was soon ground down to an explosion waiting to happen. I finally pulled her aside one day, after noticing that my face was red and so was every other member's. I asked her what was going on. Her response?

I am a female and have to prove myself to you guys. You guys don't respect me because I am female.

I discussed this with the other female member and her jaw dropped in shock. To this day none of the other members have any idea what started it, but to this day all of the guys are gun shy of working with women. Though it was discussed with her on several occasions, it never stopped and she continued to dominate the group with abuse; all in the name of "proving herself" to the guys.

All it did was make everybody angry.

I'm now pulling on my asbestos underwear... I know that this is an extreme case, and there were a lot of other factors that compounded the problem, but that one statement (indicating that the guys in the group didn't respect the opinions of the females) seemed to be at the center of the problem.

Her Point of View: We wouldn't do as we were told. We must not respect her abilities because she is a woman.
Our Point of View: She wouldn't consider other's ideas. We could not respect her.

Moral: Give respect and you have a chance to receive respect. Don't give respect and there is no way you will get it.

Competence helps in getting respect too (Male or Female).

 

[sleipnir214]

Here's a link to an online article at Network World that is apropos:

http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2003/0929women.html?docid=7849

Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!!

 

[Kavius]

Thank you sleipnir214, good article. I especially like:
[tt]
"Some women are queen bees - they say, 'I got here the hard way so I'm going to make it hard [on others].' Hopefully, we'll pass that."

- Mary Ann Davidson, Chief security officer, Oracle
[/tt]
I worked for 4 years as a nurse. I never worried about the gender bias in that industry, it was just "the way things are". For the most part, I was able to just laugh it off. I had the respect of my colleagues, and that was what mattered the most.

In the end, I don't give much thought to gender bias (which I think may be the best way to go about it). For a long time, I treated men and women equally, no matter what their job (ok, I'm a bit of a snob, but I'm equally snobbish to men and women), simply because I didn't give it a second thought. The one thing that did scare me was when I caught myself second guessing my actions (due to the situation I mentioned previously): "Do I think her idea is crap because it is crap, or because she is female?"

I can only take comfort in the knowledge that I (too my knowledge) have never shot anyone's idea down because of their sex, and there is only one woman that I am angry makes more money than me. Unfortunately, I can't complain too much, she earned it and I am just jealous.

BTW: I didn't leave nursing because of the gender bias, I left because of the crappy pay. <sarcasm>That worked out real well</sarcasm>. Oh it turns out I like computers better anyway.

 

[rosieb]

kavius
I think that one of the key points about Queen Bees is that they are much harder on their female staff, there can only be one Queen in the hive.

In my experience….

Female managers have the same problems are their male counterparts, but because there are less of them they (& their mistakes) tend to be more visible.

People are usually promoted to management because of their technical competence (sleeping with the boss rarely, if ever, leads to permanent career advancement), often without any training. Management is a skill, not an innate ability, it has to be learned.

For an inexperienced manager, managing developers is a nightmare – it’s a bit like trying to herd cats. Good developers are, by definition, intelligent, creative & questioning, they also tend to be somewhere on the scale between &quot;awkward&quot; and &quot;totally bloody-minded&quot;, not to mention tactless. Inexperienced managers tend to go for the “command & control” style of management (especially if they have no training or good role models) precisely the wrong option for that environment.

Yes, some inexperienced women managers may feel the need to overcompensate, so do some men. In that situation the art is to manage upward: find out what they need (regular detailed updates on progress, or just exception reporting etc.), make them feel supported not threatened. That will give them a chance to develop their own management style.

It should be seen as a team thing, managers keep the higher management off the backs of the developers, they need to be confident that their developers are also looking out for them. Being managed is also a skill to be learned.

 

[Kavius]

> I think that one of the key points about Queen Bees is that they are much
> harder on their female staff

I agree that the point was likely about females being harder on females, but it did fit nicely.

In my experience….

> People are usually promoted to management because of their technical
> competence (sleeping with the boss rarely, if ever, leads to permanent career
> advancement), often without any training.

I agree that sleeping with the boss would not lead to *permanent* career advancement (not sure though, I've never even had opportunity to try that tactic . One thing I do hear about are people being promoted based on their gender (or race.. or ...).

> Management is a skill, not an innate ability, it has to be learned.
>
> For an inexperienced manager, managing developers is a nightmare – it’s a bit
> like trying to herd cats. Good developers are, by definition, intelligent,
> creative & questioning, they also tend to be somewhere on the scale between
> &quot;awkward&quot; and &quot;totally bloody-minded&quot;, not to mention tactless.

Harsh but true.

> Inexperienced managers tend to go for the “command & control” style of
> management (especially if they have no training or good role models)
> precisely the wrong option for that environment.
>
> Yes, some inexperienced women managers may feel the need to overcompensate,
> so do some men. In that situation the art is to manage upward: find out what
> they need (regular detailed updates on progress, or just exception reporting
> etc.), make them feel supported not threatened. That will give them a chance
> to develop their own management style.

&quot;Management is a skill&quot;, I agree. And I must confess that it is not a skill I have had much opportunity to develop.

In the case I was discussing, one of the compounding issues was the fact that this was a team brought together for the express purpose of this project, by the group themselves. We were all people that had worked together in the past and decided to do a project outside of any managerial structure. We were not working for a company, but for ourselves. Each of us saw the others as equals when the project began, and there was no official decision to have any one member lead the group.

The comand & control style, coming from someone who was not recognized as having the authority of manager at all, was very discouraging to the other members of the group.

This case would likely make a great case study on &quot;management&quot;, but I don't know if it can be taken much further in &quot;gender bias&quot;. In other words, I think I just took us off topic (sorry). If someone wants to continue discussion on this particular case, they should start a new thread. I'm willing to continue on a new thread. I learned a lot about being a manager and being managed from that project.

I think my reason for bringing this up was that the individual in question had no reason to feel that we did not respect her ideas or thoughts. There were points that the group as a whole did not agree with, that happened to all of us during the course of the project. The fact that we were disagreeing with her based on a gender bias had to come from somewhere but it was not coming from within the group (verified by the other female member). Its unfortunate that it was brought into the group and destroyed what was a great collaborative effort until that point. Be careful you don't go looking for gender bias where it isn't. Gender bias can enter a group from both ends, men or women, biaser or biasee (I know those aren't words but...). Wherever its coming from its bad.

> Being managed is also a skill to be learned.

I learned a lot about being a manager and being managed during that project. I can't say I regret the experience, I'm only glad that it was a short one.

 

[rosieb]

kavius
It really wasn't meant as an attack, just some general personal observations. I like working with good developers, it's challenging (sometimes painful, but usually educational).

Sleeping with the boss, either gender, should only be done for other reasons .

I completely agree with your point that gender bias can work either way, the important thing is to be aware of the risk of being biased oneself (I suspect we all do it).

I think that the important thing is to find a job you enjoy, with co-workers/managers you like and respect. If not, you're in the wrong place.

Rosie

 

[Kavius]

> It really wasn't meant as an attack, just some general
> personal observations.

Didn't take it as an attack. Just got me thinking some more that's all.

> Sleeping with the boss, either gender, should only be
> done for other reasons .

Just never make the person you are sleeping with your boss. (Bad idea, have done that before).

> the important thing is to be aware of the risk of being
> biased oneself (I suspect we all do it).

My problem is more with people thinking I am biased when I'm not and they have no reason to think so. Not as big a deal as it was in nursing, but I got a little sensitive to it there.

> I think that the important thing is to find a job you
> enjoy, with co-workers/managers you like and respect.

Amen... Now if only the market were better, I could have a few more options as to which manager I was working for... Crud, off topic again :~/

 

[monikai]

How many women are in this thread ?

Regards from Monika (Warszawa - Poland)
(monikai@yahoo.com)