Gender bias in IT 5

[Lozbinator]

Hi All,

I just wanted to ask you your opinions about how men and women may be treated differently / have different opportunities / have different expectations / behave differently etc within the IT industry?

Do you think there is any difference? For exampe, Do men find that they are expected to know in depth, technical things more than women? Do women find they are mistaken as administrative assistants, or find it difficult being taken seriously?

And if you do feel that being male or female makes a difference with regard to your job, how do you work around any problems you encounter (if problems arise)??

 

[xutopia]

rtrek,

the most ridiculous things I ever heard (well technically I read that) was "Blacks don't have a soul" and "Women are incapable of making decisions so they shouldn't be allowed to vote".

Like I said redressing a state where we have allowed injustice to go for far too long might require that we unfairly disadvantage whites and men a little while to give the minorities the momentum they need to get accepted and equals amongst us all.

In all respect if my comments are the most rididiculous you've ever seen you should listen the some of the KKK stuff, or the religious right 40 years ago.

Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
==========================

 

[rtrek]

Those things are rediculous too. I never said they weren't. But as my grandmother taught me a long time ago, two wrongs don't make a right.

I minored in history in college and know all about the KKK crap and the Religious Right. Sadly, it still exists.

What you are advocating is a regression back to that. And I can tell it's never happened to you.

"Those of us who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

 

[CajunCenturion]

The KKK and the Religious Right? To be sure quite outlandish.

But what about today?
What is so different about the KKK terrorism (extreme fundamental Chistianity) and the Muslim terrorists (extreme fundamental Islam)

Both are small groups of people bent on pushing extreme fundamental principles thru undesirable means. Neither are accurate representatives of their religion nor nationalities.

You don't have to go back 40 years to repeat that history. We can hear that today.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[xutopia]

rtrek,

I've been subject to discrimination. I've had people spray paint "Go back home" on my house. I've had the crap beaten out of me at school and had to move all because of racism. Sadly I know what discrimination does and unfortunatly I know it first hand. I've lived it.

I disagree with your grandmother in this particular instance. I don't mean to undermine your grandmother's wisddom. She must have been/be wonderful. She seems concerned about morals and probably a person of great compassion and wisdom. What she says does work 99% of the time.

The fact that Michael Moore hires only blacks has to be put in context. He wrote a book called Stupid White Men and he is pro-equality of rights.

The message is simple. Hollywood only hires white people to handle cameras so he balances things out to make it more fair by only hiring blacks. It's wrong and he agress that discrimination like this is bad, but because he is part of the bigger movie industry he needs to make the industry as a whole better and that means hiring at least a few black people. He really points the finger at the people that are doing things wrong and helps balance things out so it is fair.

I know I'd like to work for the guy because I believe in his work but if hiring only minorities means he can make a very political message that has a possitive effect in our society then I'm ok not working for him!

Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran
==========================

 

[guestgulkan]

Let's not get too carried away here and let the thread descend into farce and maybe get red-flagged.
As more than one person said earlier, the prejudices within the workplace reflect those of society at large. This must be true as the people in the workplace are the same ones that have to exist in society.

The most troublesome prejudices I think are:

1. Gender
2. Racial
3. Sexual orientation
3. Religion

Turning on/of these things is not like turning on/off a tap.

 

[EdwardMartinIII]

What, no number "4"?

A huge thing is Individual Action. What can an individual do in the face of a country that has institutionalized such biases against race, gender, etc? With such a daunting task, too many people choose to not think and instead fill quotas and whatnot.

Michael Moore's solution is quite elegant -- he selects talented individuals from a more limited pool. There are craploads of great writers, light people, editors, shooters, and other movie crew who are also black. The movie industry (even Moore's small part of it) has a massive amount of talent -- so much so that Moore can afford to be choosey and still get great staff.

In IT and technology, it's a little tougher because you can't just walk into any cafe and know that the barista and the cook and the server and the prep cook and the dishwasher are all "working on a killer web app" the same way they would be "working on a script".

So, what can an Individual do?

An individual can realize that decisions are formed by specific conscious motives (I only want to hire people who know TCL) and unconscious drives (that person makes me uneasy because they're very much larger than me, and that person's really short, like a toy, and I want a real employee).

An individual can decide, just once, to hire -- from the pool of more-or-less equally talented -- the person they think is most likely to be subject to those unconscious fears. In other words, decide -- even once -- to take the chance.

Another thing an Individual can do is carve minds. I carve what minds I can. I encourage children to break molds. I encourage boys to be artists. I encourage girls to be engineers and scientists. Etc.

Yes, I think definitely there are all sorts of biases in the workplace, some annoying, some tragic. I think things are better now than a generation ago. A generation ago, they were better than the generation before. In another generation, they'll get better. And maybe it'll keep going that way. Power of law helps tremendously, but even more so is attitude. People have to take a long hard look at biases, see them in context, and make what decisions they wish about what actions they want to take. And then they must make those decisions. Even if it's a knock right now ("Oh look, Edward doesn't have a programming staff -- he has a harem!" reveals a lot more about the insulter than the intended recipient!), you make the decision. You create your own solution.

And the next generation will be even better!

(this has been a fierce and lively topic of discuussion offlist among my peers lately, which makes you the "beneficiaries" of some of the results)

Cheers,


Edward

"Cut a hole in the door. Hang a flap. Criminy, why didn't I think of this earlier?!" -- inventor of the cat door

 

[rexxxy]

I worked at a big 5 accounting firm a few years back, and 6 out of the 10 IT Support staff were females. As one of 4 guys no one had a problem with this. But the females could not work properly wih each other. There were times when they would run off to the training room away from everyone else and scream at each other to resolve their problems which would result in 2 members of staff crying and not being able to get back to work.

Also we had a few problems with calling in sick often etc..

Please dont flame me for what I have said as its just my take on the situation. Guestgulken said it right when he said they dont work well together.

That being said we have a female working in our team at the moment and she is fantastic.

 

[Lozbinator]

Curiosity has gotten the better of me rexxxy - do you mean that the women called in sick more often than the men? If so how much more often and why was this a problem?

I won't flame you for what you said, I suspect you are right. I've never had to work with a significant number of other women during my brief IT career, but I somehow think it would be quite painful. But that is off-topic, unless you think that maybe this is why women experience bias?

 

[palbano]

Wow, my office is full of female IT staff and none of them go screaming at anyone for anything at anytime. The problem male staff members are much more unstable and tend to have heated conversations and some of them are ego-maniacal jack holes too. Oh… but not me, I am a perfectly calm very nice guy ;-)



-pete

 

[lionelhill]

What always shocks me is to find my own prejudices inside my own head, when I pride myself on believing utterly honestly that the variation within men, and the variation within women, are so large compared to the difference between men and women, that you have to treat everyone as an individual.

I still have a sneaky and totally unjustifiable tendancy to assume that someone giving programming tips on-line under a female name is more likely to be a weirdo male nerd than a genuine professional IT female. That worries me!

Off to sort out my prejudices...
(thanks for interesting if liable-to-descend topic, and Well Done all for avoiding bloodshed)

 

[sha76]

Just for the record I am genuinely female! (capable of using intuition AND logic; can't park the car, but can often fix it; can have a rational argument, just so long as I can get a chocolate fix soon after! Probably confirming some prejudices, confounding others & possibly starting some new ones!)

Sharon

 

[palbano]

assume that someone giving programming tips on-line under a female name is more likely to be a weirdo male nerd than a genuine professional IT female.

Maybe it's not prejudice at work... maybe a secret desire?

-pete

 

[guestgulkan]

Maybe you are just 'confused' LionelHill.
Do you feel agitated if you see another
user in the room with the same make, model and colour PC as yours?

 

[jtb]

Y'all are nuts!!

Men and women are diferent in physical and mental capabilities and culture.

The superior management team looks at each individual employee and places her or him into a position where their talesnts can provide maximum return on the investment of their salary. If they display unhelpful traits like irrational bias, they are, depending on a variety of factors, re-educated or separated.

In IT, many women have risen to leadership roles. The CIO of Dupont and the CEO of HP are a coulple of prime examples.

Women in IT are as much a part of the landscape as H1B visas and Offshore outsourcing. The fact that they are not in ALL leadership roles is due to normal competition and lack of desire on their part.

And if it can be proven otherwise, I recommend the parties involved consult appropriate legal advisors...

JTB
Senior Infrastructure Specialist
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSE-W2K in progress)

 

[sha76]

jtb - I take it you're male then?

The issue is not merely about women in leadership roles, it's about being treated with the same respect as male colleagues (certainly not just a management issue), being given an equal opportunity for advancement and receiving the same wage as a man would in the same situation.


Sharon

PS I'd be interested to know your views on H1B visas and Offshore outsourcing, seeing as many regard them as a necessary evil they're going to have to live with!

 

[SQLSister]

I've aways worked in fields with more men than women. Having started to work in the 1970's, it has my experience that there is much less open discrimination, but the more subtle variety is alive and well. Yes an employer is less likely to tell me I got a smaller raise than my male co-workers because women have men to support them (Yes this happend to me.) Yes it is much less likely for a man to completely ignore my presence in the room (this is especially fun when you are the team leader believe me). And no one has actually tried to rape me in front of 20 other people in the office since 1982.

That said, I still make considerably less money than the men I work with even though I have the highest evaluation anyone in our company ever got in the history of the company. I still find that if I suggest something it is often ignored, but if a man suggests the same thing 5 minutes later the suggestion is heard. This isn't so much true with people who know me, but often happens in client meetings or at new jobs before I have established a track record. I have been lucky enough to work with some men who repeat what I say and after others agree with it, give me the credit for the idea, but this doesn't happen for all women in my observation. But many women are their own worst enemies in the world of professional work. They don't make suggestions or they make suggestions disguised as questions which makes them look as if they have no confidence.

As to the question of whether women or men can work together, I have experienced all the ranges of this that are possible. Some women are brought up in such a way that they are extremely competitve about other women and have trouble working with them. But that is every bit as true for some men.

My biggest complaint is the women who use their sex to get special privileges or promotions they are not qualified for because these women hurt the promotion possibilties for all the women who don't do such things by helping to increase the prejudice against women workers. I currently work with one of these. She is our system analyst, has no computer background (she asked me whether a kilobyte or megabyte was bigger the other day!) and owes her job solely to the fact that she sleeps with the CEO. Her total incompetence is certainly not helping to convince my male co-workers that women can make it in the IT world. I can offset that some, but I tend to be taken as a special case (My behavior patterns don't follow the female norms.) and the women like my co-worker are often viewed as the normal case and thus are the ones the men use when deciding what they really think of women in the workplace.

 

[lionelhill]

SQLsister, although I was being slightly frivolous in my last post, you have put your finger exactly on what I meant: (1) the dangerous bit, in my view, isn't the overt bias. It's the stuff I don't even notice most of the while because it's in my head. I'm not too upset about it - we're none of us perfectly unbiassed, but it's important to know it's there, so at crucial moments I can ask myself "is what I'm doing being affected..."
(2) Yes, like your colleagues, I still tend to assume a technically excellent woman is an "exception", and I'm utterly ashamed to find myself thinking that way. There is hope, though: I make this mistake mostly in fields other than my own, where I've met so many "exceptions" that finally the rule is crumbling.

palbano, if you're listening in to this thread, I agree totally with your comments in one of the C forum threads. What on earth is going on? Writing to random places in memory, and trying to pretend that's OK???? This sort of thing is where the decay sets in, and a good forum rapidly loses its members and turns pointless.

 

[machteld]

"I still have a sneaky and totally unjustifiable tendancy to assume that someone giving programming tips on-line under a female name is more likely to be a weirdo male nerd than a genuine professional IT female."

Funny you mention that. I have been emailing on technical stuff with a guy for a long time, for weeks he thought I was a man eventhough I used the name Maggie, so I assumed he was aware of the fact. I asked him why 'Maggie' didn't ring a bell before... well, the asnwer came down to what you descripe!
Although he perfectly knew Maggie is not a regular name for a man... something in his mind prevented him to come up with the only logical conclusion, which was that he was probably discussing technicall stuff with a female creature called Maggie.

Then of course came the next question, because when he got used to the idea of talking/asking about technical things with a lady... she must be either ugly, fat or a complete psycho!
Well, call me a bit weird, yes;-)

I am a woman, and reading this thread made me think about it for a while again, and I realize even *I* am biased sometimes. Not only towards woman, but also man:

Some time ago a very handsome man showed up at our company, he is helping us out with some upgrading stuff. My first thought was something like "Yeah, right... we get their sales rep to help us out...please give us a real technician..' So I just enjoyed looking at him, not giving him a slight chance... I was so wrong. he is very skilled indeed, and I was ashamed when I found out that even I had simple, biased thoughts like that!

Well, maybe my point here is... we *are* equal.... woman are just as bad as men are!;-)

 

[Newtt]

Great thread, I have a great group of people in my office male and female and I wouldnt have it any other way
We also have the good and the bad with that unfortunatly.
for example one woman planned her entire wedding on company time for a year strait and we have guys that do nothing all day but wonder when they will get promoted.
I follow the addidge of 80% do 20% of the work and vice versa. gender doesnt come into play for me at all but unfortunatly for some it does.

 

[machteld]

Very true! Gender has nothing to do with it, it's all about attitude I think!