english football terms 2

[Olaf Doschke]

Hi all,

I am a German, speaking and writing english quite good, but not perfect.

As the football championships is in germany this year, I want to design some welcome t-shirts with old german football sayings (pointingnesses?).

First of all I know in british english the game is called "football", in american english it's "soccer", right?

And "game" is the game itself, if I want to talk about England vs. Germany playing 90 minutes that is called a "match", right? In germany these two are called the same: "Spiel".

And each match is played on the "field", not on the "place", right?

All in all I don't want to make a mistake, so I thought the best thing would be to ask some English / Scottish/ Americans and other people talking english here.

The main theme on each t-shirt will be "football rules", as in "football regulations" or "football rules the world".

And I collected several hundred sayings from which I picked eleven, mostly from Sepp Herberger and translated them to english. Here they are, are these okay?

1. Balls, we need balls!

2. Offside is, when the referee whistles.

3. The ball is round and a match lasts 90 minutes.

4. The round is bound for the rectangular.
(remark: the round = the ball, the rectangular = the goal)

5. The fastest player is the ball.

6. After the match is before the match.

7. Decisive is on the field.

8. The next match is always the hardest match.

9. You got to be eleven friends!

10. Modern plays, who wins.

11. If the ball passes the goalkeeper, most of all that is a goal.

Number 7 is not a whole sentence, but it's also no real sentence in the german original citing, as it was said by a foreign player in broken german. So that is okay as it is. All in all it's not that serious. Nevertheless I'm interested in any feedback on this, even if you are not into football or sport in all.

Bye, Olaf.

 

[SantaMufasa]

Olaf,

Please tell us more about your project...

1) Are you planning an entrepreneurial project to sell the T-shirts to the championships spectators? (Specifically, are you planning a T-shirt Vending operation during the championships?)

2) Who is your planned audience/clientele? English fans, English-speaking fans, non-English-speaking fans that are trying to look chic by wearing a T-shirt with English slogans? et cetera?

3) Are the slogans supposed to humourous, mildly humourous, wildly humourous, provocative, thoughtful, et cetera?

4) Did the above slogans originate in German then did someone translate them into English (hoping to preserve the original meaning/impact of the German version)? When in the German language, are the slogans humourous, provocative, et cetera?

Now, although my children and grandchildren play soccer and I am familiar with the World of Soccer/Football, I must say that most of your slogans, above, did not "move" me enough to want to buy or wear a T-shirt with the slogan printed on it. The problem may be that some humour, as you know, does not translate well between languages. (Sometimes it doesn't even translate between "English" and "American".)

Despite my having a "rapier-sharp wit" <grin>, some of the slogans I'm not sure that I fully understand. Here are my reactions as a non-fanatical, soccer-aware, American to each of your slogans:

1. Balls, we need balls!

If your intent is risqué double-entendre, then you achieved your intent.

2. Offside is, when the referee whistles.

I, personally, don't understand the humour.

3. The ball is round and a match lasts 90 minutes.

I, personally, don't understand the humour.

4. The round is bound for the rectangular.
(remark: the round = the ball, the rectangular = the goal)

If there is humour here, it didn't translate.

5. The fastest player is the ball.

Mildly amusing.

6. After the match is before the match.

I, personally, don't understand the humour.

7. Decisive is on the field.

No reaction.

8. The next match is always the hardest match.

Produced in me a contemplative nod of agreement.

9. You got to be eleven friends!

Produced in me a philisophical nod of agreement.

10. Modern plays, who wins.

I, personally, don't understand this at all.

11. If the ball passes the goalkeeper, most of all that is a goal.

If you explain what you wanted to say here, perhaps we could create a more precise English translation. Did you mean, "If the ball passes the goalkeeper, it's usually a goal." ?


Do you want us to contribute more slogans (in English) of a humourous nature that apply to soccer/football? I'm sure that this group (Making An Impression) can come up with a ton of them.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[

http://www.dasages.com:

Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
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[TheRambler]

I found these translations of some Herberger’s sayings here.

3 The ball is round.
3 A game lasts 90 minutes.

6 After a game is before a game.

8 The next opponent is always the most difficult.

You could post the German version of the sayings, so that those who understand them can help you with the translation.

 

[edfair]

Pitch for the field.

Offsides: only the referee knows. Everybody else has an opinion.

The world cup: 200 weeks pummeling each other, 8 weeks of working together for glory.

I've seen that FIFA is gearing up for the hooligans. I wonder if they have a "football" no fly list?

Enjoy the games. Have never made any for WC, although I suspect that the Olympics that I did see in 1996 are a smaller version.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[Olaf Doschke]

Hi Dave,

I don't mind your oppinion about the low humorous value of these sayings. You got it partly wrong, these are not commercial slogans. These are sayings (more or less famous in germany, more or less old) of football players. And on another forum I already got a LOL, so it all depends on your personal humour. But let me answer all your questions and see if that helps you understanding and me translating better:

1) Are you planning an entrepreneurial project to sell the T-shirts to the championships spectators? (Specifically, are you planning a T-shirt Vending operation during the championships?)

I will sell these t-shirts over the internet, so everyone could be my customer. I will use the offer of an own free internet t-shirt shop, which is given by

http://www.spreadshirt.com

and

http://www.shirtcity.com.

They will print t-shirts on demand. They do all the business, all I need to do is point customers to my shirts, maybe design some site for football fans to do so. I do have not much costs with this - mostly the time I invest - and even if it fails to be successful I'd loose nothing but this time. So far it was all fun, including the feedback I got from friends, collegues (my main profession is being a programmer) and here. That's why I said all in all it's not that serious.

2) Who is your planned audience/clientele? English fans, English-speaking fans, non-English-speaking fans that are trying to look chic by wearing a T-shirt with English slogans? et cetera?

As already said any football fan in the regions that spreadshirt and/or shirtcity deliver to. The main clientele maybe would still be german fans, who know these sayings in their german original. As english is a language each one has to learn in school here - at least each western German - there are lot of Germans, who will understand these sayings and know there origin, although not every German learns english equally well.

You gave me an idea: I might print some explaination and/or the circumstances under which these sayings originated in small print underneath the saying, so that everyone could understand. Still I'd like to transport some of the humour to english speaking fans, too. But: See also my next answer...

3) Are the slogans supposed to humourous, mildly humourous, wildly humourous, provocative, thoughtful, et cetera?

The sayings have mixed intentions. As said these are sayings of football players. And as these are sometimes humorous and sometimes just say the simple truth in simple words, the intentions of these sayings are mixed. The tendency goes toward being humorous, but not only. And so there is something for everyone.

I called the shirts "welcome shirts". What I meant with that is, that either foreign fans capable to speak english that find Germans (who should still be the majority of people you'll meet here) wearing such a shirt might find someone to talk to, to ask questions etc., simply by seeing that he/she most probable speaks english, at least a bit. On the other side foreign fans could wear some saying and by that displaying their humour or friendly attitude or fairness (eg with "You got to be 11 friends).

4) Did the above slogans originate in German then did someone translate them into English (hoping to preserve the original meaning/impact of the German version)? When in the German language, are the slogans humourous, provocative, et cetera?

Yes, they did originate in German, and I translated them, trying to preseve the meaning or even give it an additional twist.

Some things you may only understand, if you know the football rules. Let me first quote the german originals and then pick out some of those you didn't get:

1. Eier, wir brauchen Eier. -> Balls, we need balls. (word by word translation would be "Eggs, we need eggs").

2. Abseits ist, wenn der Schiedsrichter pfeift. ->
Offside is, when the referee whistles. (This a word by word tranlation, but should fit, if "offside" is the right term for Abseits)

3. Der Ball ist rund und das Spiel dauert 90 Minuten. ->
The ball is round and a match lasts 90 minutes.

4. Das Runde muss in das Eckige. -> The round is bound for the rectangular. Worb by word would be "The round must in the rectangular." A correct tranlation might be "The round has to (go) into the rectangular.".

5. Der schnellste Spieler ist der Ball. -> The fastest player is the ball.

6. Nach dem Spiel ist vor dem Spiel. -> After the match is before the match.

7. Entscheidend ist auf dem Platz. -> Decisive is on the field.

8. Das nächste Spiel ist immer das schwerste Spiel. ->
The next match is always the hardest match.

9. Elf Freunde müsst Ihr sein! -> You got to be eleven friends!

10. Modern spielt, wer gewinnt. -> Modern plays, who wins.

11. Wenn der Ball am Torwart vorbei geht, ist es meist ein Tor. -> If the ball passes the goalkeeper, most of all that is a goal.

Your suggestion "...it's usually a goal" is good. But it would tranlate to german "ist es üblicherweise ein Tor". That does not sound like a football player in german, but seems to fit better in english, so I'll take that.

Now toward some of the sayings you didn't get:

2. Offside is, when the referee whistles.
Well there is a complex rule of the football game about the position of players of each team and the goalkeeper, so under certain circumstances, although a player kicks the ball into the goal, that goal does not count. The rule goes "offside is, if - in the moment of passing the ball -... etc. etc.". If you know that rule, you know a very hard to understand detail of the game. All in all a referee has to decide if a player is offside (I'm not sure about that term) or not, but as he decides, you could simplify the rule by saying, offside is, when the referee whistles.

3. The ball is round and a match lasts 90 minutes.

This is a vast simplification of the rules, which makes it funny. Of course the duration of a match has nothing to do with the roundness of a ball, has it? A better simplification would be "the team who scores the most goals wins", but that would really just be a simplification and have no humour in it.

4. The round is bound for the rectangular.

You may say this is a geometrical description of the game. As a football goal is rectangular and the aim is to score most goals to win and the ball is round, the round is bound for the rectangular.

7. Decisive is on the field.

A match is decided not by talking about it and making assumptions about who will win, but simply by playing. As I said the original is even broken german. As a correct sentence it yould be: Ein Spiel wird auf dem Platz entschieden. -> The result of a match is made on the field.

10. Modern plays, who wins.

As with 7: There is no point in discussing about the style of playing, strategical, tactical plans etc. and define a modern playing style for successfully playing football. As it's most important to win, the team who wins can be defined as the team, that plays in a modern way.

Finally, I don't really need more slogans. I want to limit the number of shirts to the number of players a football team has: 11. I might consider some better saying, but I'd assume there is noone her, knowing german football player sayings.

Bye, Olaf.

 

[Olaf Doschke]

Hi Ed,

thanks for the input. You said "Offsides". So it is the right term. Are you saying it should be "Offsides is, when..." instead of "Offside is, when..."

I've seen that FIFA is gearing up for the hooligans. I wonder if they have a "football" no fly list?

What is a "no fly list"? I googled that, ah I see. People not allowed on a flight or even a certain company.

Bye, Olaf.

 

[Thargy]

Olaf,

you've run into a big problem with language here.

It's bordering on impossible to "uebersetz" sprichworte from one sprache to another.

Zum Beispiel, "ist mir wurst" translates literally to "it's sausage to me" which is bedeutungslos in Englisch. (By the way, I'm posting in EngelDeutsch or Germish, abhangig auf what you want).

Similarly, "dass ist wurst" literally translates as "that's a sausage" which once again is meaningless in English - you just have to know to translate that as "it doesn't matter".

To translate is one thing, to translate well is another, and to translate sayings and colloquialisms (umgangsprache) is significantly more difficult than everything else, apart from poetry. (I would never attempt to translate Faust for example).

The only sure fire way to get what you want is to ask a native speaker of the language. A foreigner who has lived in England for 20 years, and speaks borderline perfect English ist einfach nicht gut genug. Note that at the level of familiarity you want, an American is so vastly different from a native English speaker, that he might as well not be a native English speaker. One of the easiest ways fuer mich to detekt ein Ami ist durch die verwendung von umgangsprache. Deshalb bin ich tod sicher dass SantaMufasu aus der USA ist, obwohl wir only write in text. Likewise, he can be hundert prozent sicher dass ich ein 'Limey' bin.

Most of your translations just didn't work in English. Alles gut mit den T-shirts, and I hope that there aren't dead trousers in town tonight.

Regards

Tharg

Grinding away at things Oracular

 

[edfair]

It sounds like the rules got mangled in the translation.

It has been about 25 years since I needed to know them "book perfect" and I no longer have the books but suspect you were referring to:

1) The ball shall be sperical and 27" in diameter when inflated to xx pounds per square inch and shall weight between xx and yy ounces.

2) when the whole of the ball passes over the whole of the line within the goal uprights and under the crossbar.

Other than offsides, which a referee knows when he sees it, the rules are simple. Try a google search for "FIFA rules". Should pick it up. And offsides is simple, too, it is the implementation that gets in the way.




Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[SantaMufasa]

Ja ist SantaMufasa ein Amerikaner, aber ich habe in Britannien jahrelang genug gelebt, die britischste Formulierung zu verstehen.

I have some suggestions for Anglicising some of your phrases, Olaf:

2. Abseits ist, wenn der Schiedsrichter pfeift. -> "It's not offsides unless the Ref whistles it offsides."

3. Der Ball ist rund und das Spiel dauert 90 Minuten. -> "The Rules: Players kick a round ball for 90 minutes."

4. Das Runde muss in das Eckige. -> "Football: Trying to kick something round through a rectangle."

7. Entscheidend ist auf dem Platz. -> "The match is decided by players on the pitch...not by fans in the stands."

Olaf, let us know if any of this seems interesting. English speakers, let me know if the suggestions represent improvements that Olaf might want to consider.



Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
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Providing low-cost remote Database Admin services]
Click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips if you use Oracle in Utah USA.

 

[chipperMDW]

Let me try.

First, let me say that "game" and "match" can probably be used interchangably when talking about a single playing session (unless there's some reason you don't do that in soccer, specifically).

--

Balls, we need balls!

Fix the grammar:

Balls[!]![/!] We need [!]b[/!]alls!

That should be fine, though I think it sounds better as:

Balls! We need more balls!

--

Offside is, when the referee whistles.

Ditch the comma. And we'd call it "offsides" with an "s."

"Offsides" is when the referee whistles.

Consider abbreviating "referee" to "ref."

--

The ball is round and a match lasts 90 minutes.

I like SantaMufasa's translation. My attempt:

Soccer is when you kick a ball around for an hour and a half.

That's an even less literal translation than Dave's, but I think it gets the point across.

--

The round is bound for the rectangular.

Get the round thingy into the square thingy.

"Rectangle" sounds a little too "smart" in this context. Using "square" loosely to mean "having right angles" sounds good and will only end up pissing off people who care about geometry (e.g. me).

--

The fastest player is the ball.

Consider rephrasing as:

The ball is the fastest player.

--

After the match is before the match.

There's no such thing as "after the game"; there's only "before the next one."

That could probably be phrased better, but I think that captures the intended meaning, which took me a while to get from your translation.

--

Decisive is on the field.

Unless the brokenness of this phrase is really famous (in an "All Your Base Are Belong To Us" kind of way), I wouldn't attempt to translate the mistake into English.

Perhaps:

The game is won on the field.

or

You win by playing the game.

--

The next match is always the hardest match.

Minor edit:

The next match is always the hardest.

--

You got to be eleven friends!

"You got to" is bad English; at least chage that to "You have to" or "You've got to." Try:

A successful team is one made of eleven friends.

--

Modern plays, who wins.

The most contemporary team wins.

or

The most up-to-date team wins.

--

If the ball passes the goalkeeper, most of all that is a goal.

I can't make a suggestion because I still don't know what this means. Does it imply that it's something other than a goal, as well?

 

[KenCunningham]

Can't agree with 'offsides'. It's always simply 'offside'. There are quite a few 'philosophical' quotations already used on tee-shirts over here in the UK, such as Bill Shankly's observation that 'Football isn't a matter of life and death. It's much more important than that." and such like. One common ploy on these tees is to have the first half of the quote on the front of the shirt, with the remainder on the back. Of course, Kenneth Wolstenholme's famous "They think it's all over; it is now" in the latter stages of the 1966 World Cup Final might not go down too well in Germany ;-)

 

[chipperMDW]

Hmm...

Ignore my "correction" of the "b" in "balls" in the first quote. I had thought it was originally capitalized, for some reason.

 

[Olaf Doschke]

Hi all,

Santamufasa:
You are making the tranlations much too complicated. The original sayings are also often only understandable in the context of football and make some assumptions. Completing the sentences takes away the humour. I want the sayings to "stay on the ground", as we would say here in germany. Don't try to make these sayings sophisticated.

The t-shirts will all have "Football rules" or perhaps "Football rules!" as a logo put in front of the saying. So the context is rather clear and I won't put something like "Football:" or "The Rules:" in front, that is not needed. I'd rather loose some of the meaning and preserve the simplicity of the sayings. I'd also put a big 12 on the backside, because fans are also often referred to as the 12th man. That way the context football is always at hand.

Chipper:
I really appreciate your input and so far I'd take some of your versions as the ones I'll use. A star for you!

1. Balls! We need balls!

more balls would ruin the "risqué double-entendre", as DAve put it.

2. "Offside" is when the ref whistles.

As Ken said - thank you Ken! - it's offside. By the way: Plural in german is not generally built with s, so "Abseits" is singular.

I will not translate "Der Ball is rund und ein Spiel dauert 90 Minuten" to something like "The ball is kicked around for 90 minutes". It's like two sentences glued together with and ("und") and should stay that way. I'd rather stress that it: "The ball is round. A game lasts 90 minutes." To last is maybe the wrong term. "The game runs for 90 minutes" or "The game durates 90 minutes" perhaps?
It's simply about the duration of the game.

The joke is, if you'd explain a game to someone, who does not know anything, there are many things you could start with. Describing the equipment or starting with the duration. If you don't do that in a well structured and easy to understand way, as you are perhaps very emotional about the game, you'd jump from one theme to another and mix things up, that's so funny about it. So I'll stay with:

3. The ball is round and a game lasts 90 minutes.

I'm only not so sure about "lasts".

4. Get the round thingy into the square thingy.

Although I'd loose the round/bound rhyme, yes that's very good. I'll take that!

5. The fastest player is the ball.

If you turn it around you take away the surprise, that the fastest player is not a real player but simply the ball. I think in german we are more free to turn around parts of sentences, but that should work in english too, wouldn't it?

6. After the match is before the match.

Well, there is an "after the match". This is not saying, that there isn't. Not really denying that. But if you rest after a won match, you may loose the next one (as that one is alaways the hardest regarding to #8). It's stating, that
you should still train and remain fit for the next game.

7. Decisive is on the pitch.

Well, the brokenness of that saying is known in germany. For foreigners that may need an explaination. But as it's all about football and famous football players are mostly known for playing good football and not for good lyrics, I'd like it to stay that way.

8. The next match is always the hardest.

Besides: One other player made a joke about that one by saying "The next match is always the next match.". But you don't understand that without #8 and I dropped that one to not have too many "next match" sayings.

9. You've got to be eleven friends!
As it isn't bad german in the original I could put it that way. Or I'll even make it worse and put it: "You gotta be eleven friends!"

10. Modern plays, who wins.
With your sugestions you did not get the twist of the saying. It's not saying that the most modern up-to-date strategical perfect team wins, it put's that the other way around and says, that the win, that wins defines what modern playing style is.

11. If the ball passes the goalkeeper, usually it's a goal.
It could be something else, it could be offside. But normally it's a goal. It even does not refer to offside as the exception. It's more like "If it's yellow and bent, it's usually a banana."

It may have been said in an interview about a match, were there really was a goal that people had diverse opinions about, if it really was a goal. And the player scoring that goal was a bit ironic or sarcastic.

Bye, Olaf.

 

[KenCunningham]

Thanks, Olaf. I think I may have posted this link before, but the wonders of 'Ronglish' never cease to amaze:

http://www.dangerhere.com/ronglish.htm

and a couple more:

All I know of morality I learned from football
- Albert Camus

Football is a very simple game. For 90 minutes 22 men go running after the ball and at the end the Germans win.
- Gary Lineker

Have a good Sunday!

 

[r937]

3. yes, "lasts" = dauert

(similar to yogi berra's famous baseball quote "it ain't over until it's over")

7. the game is decided on the field

(we have this saying in the other type of "football" too)

r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[chipperMDW]

Found this on some British Web site:

Question 27: Is it called offsides or offside?

Answer 27: Definitely offside. Our colleagues in America like to call it offsides, but the proper name is offside. You're either onside or offside. Or in other words, on the correct side or the wrong side.

I agree that "offside" makes more sense. I've just always heard it pronounced the wrong way; I guess I live on the dumb side of the pond.

3. The ball is round and a game lasts 90 minutes.

I'm only not so sure about "lasts".

"Lasts" sounds right to me. "Runs" sounds like something the British would say, though. ;-)

5. The fastest player is the ball.

If you turn it around you take away the surprise, that the fastest player is not a real player but simply the ball. I think in german we are more free to turn around parts of sentences, but that should work in english too, wouldn't it?

Yes, changing the sentence order does slightly change the meaning in English.

"The ball is the fastest player" still has a "surprise," but it's a different kind of surprise. It's more like: the ball is not a piece of equipment, but another player.

To get the effect you want, I'd suggest:

The fastest player? The ball.

With the second sentence italicized (and maybe on the back of the shirt).

6. After the match is before the match.

Still sounds a little off... Perhaps: "After the match is before the next."

Or maybe something like "Post-game is pre-game." I know they use those terms in American football, but I'm not sure if they fit in this context.

Maybe something with an equals sign? "After the game = Before the next."

10. Modern plays, who wins.

With your sugestions you did not get the twist of the saying. It's not saying that the most modern up-to-date strategical perfect team wins, it put's that the other way around and says, that the win, that wins defines what modern playing style is.

Ah, I understand, now.

Try:

"Modern play" is whatever wins.

11. If the ball passes the goalkeeper, usually it's a goal.

It may sound a bit better if you switch "it's" and "usually."
If the ball passes the goalkeeper, it's usually a goal.


"You gotta" is a good choice for #9.


I think you're going to have a hard time with #7. It's very hard to translate a grammatical error without making it look like you made it.

 

[r937]

grammatical error? not in my version of #7 ;-)

r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> grammatical error? not in my version of #7
Your version contains two errors.

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[r937]

my #7 was "the game is decided on the field"

the only so-called "error" that you might have had in mind is that it could possibly be called a pitch instead of a field

what's the other error?

r937.com | rudy.ca

 

[Olaf Doschke]

Hi all,

r937, I think the second error is not starting the sentence with a capital "T".

Well, I could print an origin and explaination of the quotes and thereby make clear, that that grammatical error is not made by me. On the other side who would want to have such a wrong shirt? I could put the "correct" translation within the description and so I'll put it as "The game is decided on the pitch.".

I see, that in #5 you may think of a player being kicked around. The german original has that same danger of misinterpretation, but you convinced me to make it clearer, so I'll make it "The ball is the fastest player.". You can put it either way, the surprise does not last very long, so the loss of the surprise is not too big.

The idea to split the quotes and print the second part on the back is nice, but would not work with every quote. And the back is already coverd with a 12 in my design.

I think it is more communicative to have the full quote on the front. If you sit somewhere with such a shirt and your back is covered, nobody would get the meaning.

And here are the final results:

1. Balls! We need balls!
2. "Offside" is when the ref whistles.
3. The ball is round and a game lasts 90 minutes.
4. Get the round thingy into the square thingy.
5. The ball is the fastest player.
6. After the match is before the next.
7. The game is decided on the pitch.
8. The next match is always the hardest.
9. You gotta be eleven friends!
10. "Modern play" is defined by the winner.
(perhaps: "Modern" plays, who wins.)
11. If the ball passes the keeper, it's usually a goal.

Thanks to everyone involved!

Ken, star for the Ronglish link, very funny. That should also help me learn additional terms, if I need them.

Bye, Olaf.