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DeVry 17

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TruthInSatire

Programmer
Aug 12, 2002
2,964
US
I'm looking into continuing my education. I have nothing but Highschool at this point but am currently doing very well as a self taught programmer. I realize I can't get far or be competative for long without a degree. I'm looking into going to DeVry for the Computer Information Systems (CIS) degree online.

As far as I know DeVry is a favorable place to hold a degree from. In my searching though I've found a bunch of bad press. DeVry the "Degree Mill", , credits don't transfer, worthless $60k degree, and so on. I'm thinking most if it is just a bunch of cry baby's that didn't get what they want because they didn't try or they can't sell themselvs or some other extinuating circumstances at DeVry that can't be considered rutine.

On the other hand the first time someone suggested DeVry to me the first thing i thought of was "its a vocational school." I told my dad he said, "you want to be a refrigerator repair man?" Is this how DeVry is thought of by the masses or are we just uneducated? hehe. I know they are accredited but i'm just wondering, after all is said and done, I tell a potential employer i have a degree from DeVry, how will they weigh it?

Thanks!

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams (1952-2001)
 
and others read to much into it...

If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

-Quote by Edward Hodnett
 
revisit - I realize that may have sounded offensave to people with a degree. I'm sorry that wasn't my intention.

let me 'splane. I'm all for an education and i love to learn. (this is obvious being that I taught myself pascal in Jr High and C++ in high school when class were not available.) it's a "stupid piece of paper" because some employeers treat it as a "proof of ability" or "writ of passage", not proof of education.

I spent 4 years in the Marine corps as an electronics tech right out of high school. I now work out of my formaly trained field as a web programmer. I never would have gotten the job i have now had it been for the fact that there just wasn't anyone else to do it. I was "just some hobiest that knows how to use front page." They're a contractor obligated to fill the position so they can get paid. they gave me the job just to fill the position. They were shocked when I actually knew what i was doing (i've increased my salary by $14,000) in the last 3 years. I've seen people with BS' and masters' that can't manage to get their shoes on the right foot. I've seen plenty "proven-able people get the job just because they had the "stupid piece fo paper" that said they could do it. when fact of the mater is, the only thing they know how to do is go to school, they failed at the job miserably. This isn't true for all mind you, but in programming, as you programmers know, it takes a different method of thinking that you can't necessilarly learn in college. Engineering is the same way. Most engineers i know are pretty out there, I'm sure they definatly have their own way of thinking. :)

in short i don't need a "proof of ability" to do a job well, but many employeers wont let potential dynomite employees prove it just bcause they can't see past that "proof of ability." so yes in those instances i think its a stupid piece of paper.

If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

-Quote by Edward Hodnett
 
Reminds me of a story, I believe by Al Quincy, Michael Swaine, or one of the other long time columnists for Dr. Dobb's Journal, that I read back in the 90s. He had started a software company, sold it and gone on to bigger things. I don't remember what his purpose was, but he applied to the company he'd started for a job, and was turned down because he didn't have a degree. The Human Resources personnel were new enough to not know who he was, and had no idea what made a good programmer or bad one.

I took some programming classes at a local college, after having worked with real life programming for about 8 or 9 years, and the majority of the younger people (mid 20s and younger) in all the computer-related classes I was in studied for the tests, not to learn the subject for the long run. Their goal was that piece of paper, not the knowledge that the paper was supposed to represent. Some got straight A grades in the classes, but after the tests couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag.

If the goal of a student in taking classes is to get the piece of paper at the end, then that student will probably never be good at what they do because they don't value the actual knowledge that the degree signifies. Those programmers who went to school to get the knowledge and understanding, and somehow along the way fulfilled the school requirements for the piece of paper, are the ones who are qualified programmers and techs.

Part of the blame is on the Human Resources departments that hire people who respect the paper over the knowledge, and who have no idea what makes someone qualified for a particular job. Maybe it's because some of them have only the paper and not the knowledge, too.

Lee
 
Thank you Lee.

Further more, if i didn't care about my education i wouldn't have posted this thread in the first place. If i just wanted the paper I'd go to a degree mill. If i didn't care about my education I wouldn't have the desire to go to an estemed school such as carnegie mellon were the education is proven and respected.

higher learning doesn't prove someone can do a job, it proves they can be taught and retain knowledge. nothing more. I have an aunt that was a professional student. Very smart. Did some IC design and programming, built robots, military aircraft component design, ect. For about 10 years. after that her 4 degrees are collecting dust. She's home doing nothing because she can't handle the work environment.

Baker offers the "experience for credit" thing. it's a 10 week course. Basicly you have to prove your skill with certs and experience. Letters from employeers and so on. I've opted not to take that option because it would allow me credit for exactly what i'm going to school for... programming.

While your posts above were helpful, KHZ i suggest you not jump to conclusions and downplay fellow professionals in the future.

If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

-Quote by Edward Hodnett
 
And where did I jump to conclusions and downplay fellow professionals?

What a ridiculous statement.

And though your aunt may be home doing nothing, that doesn't mean her education was not worthwhile. Does she vote? Then it helps (I would hope) her understand issues dealing with social security, etc., and making choices that benefit society.

And to make a comment like you did (stupid piece of paper) then it must have some basis of realization for you, otherwise it wouldn't have been in your mind and been transferred to type.

AND, I hate reading those "stories" of people who have degrees who cannot tie their shoes, and so on.

An education is a foundation for extricating oneself from economic poverty. Very few CEO's don't have an MBA or higher education. For that matter, look at the President and Congress, who have a higher education.

Higher education means one can only be taught and retain knowledge? That is absurd.
 
what are you an instructor?
And where did I jump to conclusions and downplay fellow professionals?

by assuming that i
[qutote]
don't appreciate an education or are doing it for the wrong reasons
[/quote]

I hope we don't need a higher education to understand social security reform or this nation's in trouble.

but this is a bunch of nonsence. i'm not saying higher education isn't important in advancing your development if you're serious about it, which i am. I'm just saying many people put too much weight on the degree for the wrong reasons. being book smart doesn't mean you can apply it in a working environment and be a good employee.

If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

-Quote by Edward Hodnett
 
khz

I have to disagree with you.

A degree doesn't mean a damn thing. It means nothing. Generally, The only people I see defending them are those with no real skills who hide behind their MBA all the while knowing deep down they are a fraud. People with no life experience and no education.

In the US, a college degree all too frequently only means you have obtained the equivalent of a foreign high school diploma. You can read and write. Sort of.

All too frequently it simply means you are the member of a club. Having a degree from Yale means you are a member of a more exclusive club. It means the HR person, who can't evaluate you on your skills, can take what is frankly the easy way out and use that "piece of paper" as a way to cut applicants.

An education, in contrast, is priceless. Please do not confuse the two. That said, having a degree is important in the US. It doesn't mean you have an education. It just means you can get a job.

Yes most CEO's and members of Congress have degrees (some of the best CEO's do not). It is, however, a common error in logic to assume causality or that a majority of CEO's or Congresspeople are shining examples of society's well educated best and brightest.
 
bluetone - Do you have a degree? Is so, from where?

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Wait, didn't I just see this episode on The Apprentice?
(College Education vs Street Smarts).

I am what I am based on the decisions I have made.

DoubleD [bigcheeks]
 
I have two - a BA in music composition from the University of Oregon and an associates in electronic engineering technology (fancy title for an electronics tech) from Trident Tech in Charleston SC - a tech school.

A college education is a wonderful thing. I learned much. Because I was interested and I studied. Other folks majored in drinking beer but managed to graduate with thier 2.5 averages. A college degree doesn't necessarily mean anything. That is my point.

My colleague in the next office has a masters in marketing from the College of Charleston - a reasonably respected private college. She can't write to save her life. That is my point.

Yes I can sound dogmatic at times :)
 
doubled - yeah you did. book smarts are loosing. lol

If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

-Quote by Edward Hodnett
 
bluetone - It seems, although I could be wrong, that you're judging the degree based on academic success and knowledge alone. When you contrast, appropriate so, an education with a degree, you seem to be introducing a mutual exclusion between the two, that I do not think exists. College life is an education in and of itself. It doesn't matter whether you earned a degree in basketweaving -- (one of these days I'm going to find out where that came from) -- or nuclear physics. You learned how to go to class, to study, to listen, and hopefully to question, to budget your time, to accept and complete long-term projects, to budget your time, to party (yes that is an integral part of the education), and to prioritize between tomorrows exam and next weeks project report. You learned when, and how (more coffee please), to pull an all-nighter to finish a project that is due. Many of us learned how to take an exam while suffering from a hangover. That's kind of like practicing to make that presentation to the client when you feel like human excrement. Then you learned when to party and when not to. Well maybe, some of us took a few times to learn that lesson. I digress. There is also the social education that one obtains while in college. Having a degree doesn't mean your book smart, that's true. Being book smart doesn't mean you have or can get a degree. But having a college degree (BA/S or better) means that you can and have started and completed a four or five year project while dealing with the adversities of life and well, growing up. There are exceptions to every rule, of course. There are idiots with degrees, and there are very intelligent people who chose a different route in life. To think that a degree is not a measure of education -- education has you have defined it -- is to grossly underestimate the value of completing degree program.

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Ok - I'm going to sound harsh here but 4 years in the Marine Corp (ala BombBoy)is an education and a degree as far as I am concerned. (No I have not been in the military but I did spend 11 years working for Uncle Sam in a law enforcement type role and worked with the military frequently.)

4 years and $50k+ going to college to learn when to not party is a joke.

Now, I admit, I am not treating your comments fairly - the many other skills you list are valuable. But they can just as easily be learned working as a carpenter.

Oh I noticed you have to have a Bachelors or better for a degree to be valid. Or to equal an education. Or something. I guess it takes 4 years to learn when not to party - 2 aren’t sufficient. Puleeezzzeee

That is just the kind of arrogant elitism that too often represents US business management.

I'm throwing bombs here and have attacked your calm comments severely and somewhat unfairly. Since this is an anonymous forum that is easy to do. But darn it, too many people with degrees look down at the rest of the world. For no good reason.

Educate yourself so that you can walk in civilized society. Obtain a degree so that you can get a job. Since too many in our culture buy into value of a degree vs. an education there is, unfortunatley, little choice.
 
Ok - I'm going to sound harsh here but 4 years in the Marine Corp (ala BombBoy)is an education and a degree as far as I am concerned

I'd like to think the same trust me. It taught me a skill and made me do it for 4 years.

Once I got out, I couldn't get a job doing the exact same thing (down to the special test equipment) because i didn't have a degree or 12 years experience. A 6 month class and OJT was good enough for the corps, but that and the 4 years experience just wasn't enough in the non-military world, go fig.

I have a pretty good resume that would suggest I can do a pretty good job if i were applying for a position, unfortunatly i get stuffed to the bottom just because i'm "uneducated"



If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

-Quote by Edward Hodnett
 
Your hypothetical four years in the Marines would definately contribute to your education, but in no way is a substitute for a degree. It is a completely different environment with different motivations and different objectives. I am not saying that that either is better than the other, only that they are very different, but both quite valuable. Both are part of a diverse educational background. Four years in the military is an education, unless its one year of education four times, and is not one necessarily well-rounded. Similarly for a two year program will not be nearly as well-rounded as a four year program. A two year program cannot provide the breadth of a four year program. A four year degree exposes one to areas outside of one's primary subject interest.

Learning how to party generally takes one week, or less. Learning when to party make take a little longer. Learning when you've had enough is one of life's ongoing lessons. The older I get, oh never, mind.

No where have I equated a degree with education. No where have I substituded experience for a degree. Both your formal studying, and your life's experiences contribute to your education. That part of your education that comes from college life cannot be obtained anywhere else.

Please do not think that I am over-valuing a degree, because that is not my intent. My intent is to avoid the reverse, not to allow a degree to be discounted as irrelavent. It's worth far more than that.

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
CajunCenturion,

Nicely argued rebuttal. I will have to quibble regarding this statement "That part of your education that comes from college life cannot be obtained anywhere else.”

I didn't find college life to be particularly valuable. I found most of the students to be silly kids trying to grow up - and I started college early rather than late. But I will concede it could be useful for some. I would have to say that college classes are superior, or perhaps more well rounded, for most people compared to self study. Depends on the instructor.

Finally, before I get my backside back to work, I would like to toss in that many two year degrees require most of the required classes you find in your typical BA so while the bachelors is definitely the way to go (both from an educational and a job marketing point of view), AA or AS degrees many times provide better value than they are generally given credit for.


 
lmao
Your hypothetical four years in the Marines

felt pretty real to me. :)

I agree it isn't the same as a degree simply because it's very specialized. however, what does a health or music appreciation or such classes have to do with electronics and IT? Some of those classes i'm sure are stuffed in just for the extra money to the school. I know somone who had to take health 3 times because the credits didn't transfer... who cares, its health class, use a condom and brush your teeth. i'll be taking my 3 credits now please.



If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

-Quote by Edward Hodnett
 
bombboy,

There's a lot more to it than whether a specific class furthers your goals. Part of the whole point of college is to teach critical thinking skills and to teach you how to learn - lessons that are currently sorely lacking at the high school level. This is a good thing for kids who start college straight out of HS, but can be boring for older students who have learned these things through life experience.

Part of the trick is to learn to look at these required classes as an opportunity to learn something new. It's a way of looking at life in general - are challenges a pain or an opportunity? If you approach them as an opportunity, you'll generally get something out of them. Granted, I never had to take a health class, but I did have to take the intro programming class - 500 students in a lecture hall and weekly discussion sections with 20-30 students - and I had been programming for several years already. I bought the class notest and usually skipped the lecture (unless there was an exam), went to the discussion section, and did the programming projects. This was an opportunity in that I had to take the class in order to get into the higher level classes and it taught me that learning a new programming language was not a major issue when you already know another one - just a matter of learning the syntax for how to do things that you already know can be done.

-Dell

A computer only does what you actually told it to do - not what you thought you told it to do.
 
I agree that education can be obtained outside of a classroom environment. however...

in my experience, my classroom studies helped me become a well-rounded individual. I learned not only to do the job, but also how to appropriately plan so I can do the job correct and on time, manage workload and resources through scheduling, build a contract for my company, design a system through various lifecycles, build appropriate and supporting documentation so future programmers and changes are mostly design, not trying to figure out what the last programmer did, etc., etc., etc.

I found out that my classroom studies assisted me in enhancing my skills and helping me acheive a career, rather than a job.

Not only that, but it's helped me in other areas that support my programming such as: statistics to help me identify business trends, research writing to help me identify and present ways to improve those trends, presentation skills to educate customers on how to use the product, sociology and pyschology to identify best ways to deal with my co-workers or an intense situation, etc., etc., etc.

I have many co-workers, not that all are like this, but that are book learned and fail to see the importance of flowcharting, documentation, and planning. Then when they mess up a project, the customer asks me to take over the project because they've seen my prior successful projects utilizing those skills I've learned by obtaining my degree.

I think those that earn a degree and take it seriously, are at a great advantage.
 
thanks dell
This was an opportunity in that I had to take the class in order to get into the higher level classes and it taught me that learning a new programming language was not a major issue when you already know another one - just a matter of learning the syntax for how to do things that you already know can be done.

I've mentioned this in a number of threads, a recient post...
logic is logic. ASP is the same as CF when it comes to logic, you just need to learn the CF syntax ...


I boast I can do well with CF, ASP, PHP, actionScript, java, c++ and so on. the truth is i'm great at 2 ok with 2 others and could figure out the rest because i know how programming logic works... however i didn't need college to come to that realization. How did i find out? I read books on php, asp, cf, actionScript, javascript, java, and c++. It didn't take much to realize the first 3 chapters of each book were about the same. "variables and data types, program flow, and so on..."

I realize i just sounded like organized education isn't important. but people can get educated in many ways. I've done so by teaching myself with my own drive and desire. People are educated by life events. for example i'm educated in purchasing a home because i've done so, not because i went to a realestate class. Do i know everything there is to know about buying a home? nope, but i still have a form of education and i learned a lot in the process. Unfortunatly self teaching and "school of hard knocks" don't offer the degree (proof) employeers look for.

I spoke with a few people that have said (to paraphrase) the one thing a lot of college grads lack is the ability to break something apart and learn how it works on their own. It's expected to be explained to them and find it hard to "get their finger nails dirty and learn it on their own". That is a general statement and i'm not stereo typing and by no means saying anyone here can't figure something out. but that is exactly the difference in learning styles between self taught and class taught individuals.

If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

-Quote by Edward Hodnett
 
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