DeVry 17

[TruthInSatire]

I'm looking into continuing my education. I have nothing but Highschool at this point but am currently doing very well as a self taught programmer. I realize I can't get far or be competative for long without a degree. I'm looking into going to DeVry for the Computer Information Systems (CIS) degree online.

As far as I know DeVry is a favorable place to hold a degree from. In my searching though I've found a bunch of bad press. DeVry the "Degree Mill",

http://www.ihatedevry.com

, credits don't transfer, worthless $60k degree, and so on. I'm thinking most if it is just a bunch of cry baby's that didn't get what they want because they didn't try or they can't sell themselvs or some other extinuating circumstances at DeVry that can't be considered rutine.

On the other hand the first time someone suggested DeVry to me the first thing i thought of was "its a vocational school." I told my dad he said, "you want to be a refrigerator repair man?" Is this how DeVry is thought of by the masses or are we just uneducated? hehe. I know they are accredited but i'm just wondering, after all is said and done, I tell a potential employer i have a degree from DeVry, how will they weigh it?

Thanks!

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[TruthInSatire]

Good points sqlsister, thank you.

this is devry's
nca page.

http://www.ncahigherlearningcommission.org/directory/?Action=ShowBasic&instid=1784

Distance Learning (last updated: 07/28/2004)

B.S in Business Administration offered via Internet
B.S. in Technical Management offered via Internet
BS in Computer Information Sys offered via Internet
BS in Information Tech offered via Internet
Master of Accounting & Financial Mgmt offered via Internet
Master of Business Administration offered via Internet
Master of Human Resource Mgmt offered via Internet
Master of Information Systems Mgmt offered via Internet
Master of Project Management offered via Internet
Master of Public Administration offered via Internet
Master of Telecommunications Mgmt offered via Internet

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

 

[kHz]

Do you or have you worked for an accrediting organization?
You have no information on the accreditation procedures, therefore you cannot comment on exactly what is required. I want to see what they were accredited in/for and how.

It is also known that technical schools that offer undergraduate degrees are not always accepted in transferring credits and not accepted for graduate schools. Why waste the time and money on them?

Here is a program from Rushmore University that more than adequately reinforces my "University" statement (

http://www.rushmore.edu/

):

Our Doctoral program does not require a Master's or Bachelor's degree if you have significant work experience or informal education through non-degree courses or self-study.

There is no cost to apply. No entrance exams are required. No GMAT, GRE, or TOEFL exams are required for admission. Whether or not your primary language is English, our Writing Lab will help you to improve your research and writing skills.

And a BS in accounting from Hamilton College using their 2+2 program is not the same as an accounting degree from Iowa State University.

I have never seen a graduate program that offers life experience credit and would not even consider that acceptable because a master's program has different goals and objectives than a bachelor's degree.

 

[kHz]

I would like to add that I don't have a problem with DeVry and believe anyone getting their degree there has earned it and should be commended for their effort and be recognized for their achievement.

 

[SQLSister]

I actually know a good bit about the accrediation process because I have worked for an organization that was going through the process. You certainly do make a lot of unwarranted assumptions, don't you?

And because you have never seen something, it isn't so. Strikes me as a poor bit of logic.

Basically you are prejudiced and are unwilling to allow any facts to sway your opinion.




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[Onyxpurr]

Thank you Khz. I worked my butt off for that degree, and i have to admit it does incite me when i see someone make ignorant remarks about an institution they know nothing about.

Whew!! Okay, steam blown...

When I earned my BS in CIS at Devry, I worked harder there than I did at any of the colleges I went to and an equal amount of effort when I attended classes at ASU. The only difference from DU and ASU was that I got much more interaction and assistance from the professors at DU than ASU because of the smaller classes.

I still had to take GenEd classes (such as Statistics, Economics, Sociology, Literature, etc...) however they had a minor bent towards technology. Well the 300,400 classes did not the 200,100 courses. My professors were very knowledgeable.

You do have to take an entrance exam to get both into Devry and Keller with the exception that if you are already an enrolled student at another college or university and are transferring.

Like I said, I think the big thing people are not recognizing is:

Yes, Devry USED to be a technical school, but they are no longer. They worked their buttes off to meet all the requirements to be a university and to me did a darn good job at it.

If I thought at any time that my degree wouldn't be taken seriously or that it wasn't worth it, i wouldn't have returned to Devry and shelled out $30k on a worthless education. Likewise for the many professionals I attended school with.

Question: Why on earth would I attend a school that costs more than the local university if I didn't think it worthwhile? Please don't insult my intellect and abilities.

 

[jsteph]

bomboy,
Have you considered commuinity college? Do you have one nearby? I too was in a similar situation, and I too looked at devry. My reasons for turning it down were mainly the high cost. I went with a community college, and I found the faculty excellent, I was taking C & C++ courses, and they were taught by highly compentent, actively employed Bell Labs engineers (the creator's of C).

I was fulltime employed at the time, but in a matter of 1 year I had taken four 5 credit-hour courses and the total cost--about $1200. A bit of irony is that I don't even work with C or C++, but learning that was a huge benefit to learning solid programming concepts, and I'd do it again even knowing I wouldn't use the language directly.

Your local community college's credit-hour cost may be slightly more or less, but I'll bet it's a fraction of Devry's. I think it's worth looking into. The way I look at it--Devry, in my opinion, puts more of their resources into quality recruiters and slick marketing than they do in faculty. A community college is typically subsidized by a taxing district so they need to focus less on making enrollment quotas, and can focus on getting decent faculty.
--J

 

[willir]

Hmmmm

Accreditation:
This means that the program / course / diploma has to meet a set of guidelines and standards. Something akin to ISO standards. The catch of course is whose guidelines. For example ISO 12000 or 14000 is whole different ball game than ISO 9000. In general, however, I would tend to think that an accredited program has merit.

...and as an FYI...

DeVry Unversity Centre ... Accreditation/Approvals

DeVry University is accredited by The Higher Learning Commission and is a member of the North Central Association (NCA), 30 North LaSalle Street, Chicago, Illinois, 60602, www.ncahigherlearningcommission.org, 800/621-7440. NCA is listed by the U.S. Department of Education as a recognized accrediting association. The University's Keller Graduate School of Management is included in this accreditation.

...hmmmm, they spell it out in writing so you can view eactly their level of standards entails.

Reputation:
Hey guys and gals, tek queens and tek kings, various institutions have a reputation -- good or bad, and the reputation does carry weight. The reputation can be swayed through marketing programs and press, but for the long term, I feel a reputation is set the quality of work as reported by the students and the employers who hire the students. So far, most of what I have seen and heard, DeVry has a pretty good rep.


Regionalism:
Devry campuses are located in many locations within and outside of USA. I counted 19 metro locations and 14 campuses. Although each location will have to meet a certain level of standards, some campuses may be better manged, have better teachers than others. Separating these differences would be tough.


Vocational schools, Colleages and Universities:
You really have to look at the programs within the institution. A diploma, graduate degree and post graduate degree will have different levels of requirements. The type of expectations are very different for those pursuing a degree in Fine Arts, History, Marketing, Agriculture and Physics. A post graudate degree such as a PhD or Masters usually requires much harder work and a higher level of understanding than an undergraduate degree. A diploma will usually involve even less work.

But regardless of the level of understanding and amount of work involved, you still have to look at the focus of the program and the quality of the program.

I perceive DeVry as a "technical" school -- light on theory and visioning, and heavy on real-life techncial skills knowledge. This does not belittle the quality of the education -- it still requires a lot of hard work -- but the focus is different.

I suspect there are a lot more companies hiring people for their technical knowledge than companies hiring people for their theoretical and visioning work. But the one hiring for the theoretical and visioning stuff probably are paying bigger bucks.

And don't forget...
- "School hard knocks" a.k.a., experience still counts for a lot regardless of education.
- The IT business is always changing. So even after getting a degree or diploma, you still have to keep learning ... or you are going to be left behind (or promoted to management based on your soft skills).


Be Smart:
Look at what you are good at (programming?) and look at the job market -- What is hot and what is not? Here is the tough one -- what will be tough 5 and 10 years from now?

Talk to HR and Management of potential employers -- not to seek employement (yet), but to get their perspective. Would they prefer a DeVry grad over other institution? What type of schooling, credentials, etc make some one very employable? ...type of questions.

And how best to get from here to there?


Best of luck

 

[TruthInSatire]

jsteph- thanks but i'm not looking into what a CC can offer. At best a 2 year degree which means very little in my field/area. I need a full 4 year degree that will mean something and be taken with high regards when applying for a job.

willir- great post well thought out and spoken. If you think ISO is Obscure with there qualifications... try CMMi some time.

I know getting a degree from some places means a ton more than others. The Yale guy gets hired over Iowa state guy... Harvard over SIU and so on.

I know devry isn't up there with the Ivy league status, but it's a well known name (Mainly for the commercials just saw one yesterday) but does the name mean anymore than xyz state university? I'm sure that's an opinion question (probably even retorical) and if the employer even looks at that or just, "is it an accredited degree?"

I know i'll be competative after i get any degree,
4 years in USMC as an electronics tech
4 years programming
self taught
java, pascal(in jr high), asp, coldfusion, sql, php, JS, actionScript, xml, and so on and so forth...

If devry is looked at in a higher reguard than other "comprable" schools I'd like to attend. That's why i joined the marines over army.


A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

 

[jaymaechtlen]

Often you can get the first 1-2 years of a 4-year degree an a community college.
You can then transfer to a 4-year school and complete the degree. Total credits, time, etc. about the same either way.
Cost: considerably less by starting in the 2 yr school.

- well, maybe the fast-track program is worthwhile, if you can spend 1 year less in school, start earning sooner?
40k first year earnings - 10k cost difference(appx?) = 30k gain by taking fast track!

cheers, good luck!
Jay

 

[grepper]

First off, getting a degree from anywhere is one of the best things you can do, no matter where is comes from. It's never easy and good on you for wanting to educate yourself further.

DeVry has a bad rep with me because the people I knew that went there flunked out of school and Devry was the only place they could get into. Because of low GPAs they had to pay a premium to gain a degree. I certainly would not consider a degree gained over the internet as worth much.

In my opinion, you are much better attending a traditional 4 year school. Or attend a 2 year school and transfer in. At the very least you will save thousands of dollars and you will earn a degree you will not have to defend.

 

[TruthInSatire]

Thanks to everyone for their input. I found this and have been conidering it.

http://www.bakercollegeonline.com/index.cfm/degreeonline-about

when i called for information one of the things they mentioned was i could get an associate in say "computer Programming" all credits would go right twards my BS:CIS, then all credits count twards my masters in "computer science". I end up with 3 degrees from the same school with "no hastle". any thoughts on that?

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

 

[willir]

bombboy

I got a dead link twice when I tested it. I got through the third time.
- Accredited details provided in FAQ's and "Top 5 reasons...". This is good.
- "Press releases" were a little odd -- it did not mention where / which press the release was published by giving it feeling more related to a promotion release.
- Seem to have a special deal for the US milatary
- I did not see any remarks from the business community
- A brief Google search only revealed their sites and advertisement sites -- no independent reviews

* Price seems to be very "competitive"

If you can...

Talk to HR and Management of potential employers -- not to seek employement (yet), but to get their perspective.

 

[kHz]

then all credits count twards my masters in "computer science"

Thoughts? NO college or university I know of has ever accepted ANY undergraduate hours toward a graduate degree.

A master's program usually consists of 36 (or 42) hours beyond a bachelor's degree. But that doesn't mean that someone can take 36 one cr hr of golf and get a master's; there is a program of study to follow. A doctorate is usually 96 hours beyond a master's degree and a master's degree is not required to earn a doctorate; though most attain the former because of classes taken and a program of study for the latter.

An interesting question for people who take these 100% online college programs is how they note this "college" on their resume. Do they write "Baker College, BS Comp Sci, 2005" or do they scribe "Baker College Online ..."; I would guess the former. I have a coworker who could not get into a local university's graduate school so she opted for UoP, and then bailed on that program to enter "law school" (online of course, without ABA accreditation). Now her salutation to people she wants to impress is, "I am in law school." Yet, she neglects to add the "online" part, and the part that it isn't accredited by the ABA and she cannot sit for the state bar. Is this deception? (and before anybody retorts about a "real" university distance education program - I am talking of 100% online schools).

 

[TruthInSatire]

from what i can see baker online is just an extension of baker college. But that does pose an interesting question. I'll ask to see if that "online" word pops up on the degree or if if its just distance learning from baker college.

You're right i misspoke when I said the BS would count for the masters, I just ment the progression of it all. thanks for correcting.

I think i'm going to bail on devry... just have to tell the "advisor" and hope for a short speach... last time i said i wasn't going to make the feb class i got a pep talk on why i should go to school... I just needed to take care of some financial stuff before i go... i wasn't dropping out at that time... Great sales person though.

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

 

[chiph]

Have you checked with these places to see if DeVry, Keller, Baker College, etc. are accredited?

ACM
Association for Computing Machinery

http://acm.org

CSAB
Computer Science Accreditation Board

http://csab.org

ABET
Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology

http://www.abet.org/cac1.html

IEEE-CS
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers - Computer Society

http://www.computer.org/

AIS
Association for Information Systems

http://www.aisnet.org/

You should also compare the curriculum at any prospective school against the 2005 ACM/IEEE/AIS proposed curriculum, found at:

http://www.acm.org/education/Overview_Draft_11-22-04.pdf

Chip H.


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[TruthInSatire]

awesome pdf, thanks.

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

 

[lespaul]

NO college or university I know of has ever accepted ANY undergraduate hours toward a graduate degree.

I graduated with a BBA w/ an MIS concentration from the Anderson School of Management - University of New Mexico. If I had chosen to continue with my Masters degree at Anderson, I could have waived up to 24 hours of 500 level courses if I had achieved a B or better in the 300 level classes. So, I receieved a B in MGT 326 Finance, I could waive the MGT 526 Finance course. These waviers were only available for the "basic" courses. For instance, I had to take MGT 329 Database Management as part of my MIS studies; if I was continuing on a Masters in MIS, I wouldn't be able to waive that course.

Leslie

 

[CTekMedia]

Bomboy - lots of posting here that I only skimmed through so hopefully my comments will be germane.

First - Having received your help many times in the ColdFusion forum, I hope you realize how good your programming skills are. You should be making $90k a year right now with your skill set. Getting a degree is a good long term move, particularly if you want to move into management, but there are PLENTY of companies that will hire you today for big bucks.

Second. I have two degrees. Neither in programming. :-(
I would trade them for your knowledge of ColdFusion. Make sure whatever school you choose is regionally accredited. With your brain you should make sure that you will be able to get into several grad schools with good names that interest you. I wouldn't get a masters from DeVry. The name of the school and having the degree are what (unfortunately) matters most in the job market (add - who you know). How much you know wont be evaluated until you are in the job, if then.

I don't know how old you are but you have the skill. If you are going to buy a piece of paper (a degree) buy one with a good name.

 

[TruthInSatire]

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm 27 and firmly planted where i am for a few years which is exactly nowhere near any kind of school. I work full time, run a biz from home and also support a family, so i can't exactly make the hour and a half commute for classes. There are a few "remote campus'" around here. One is for Park University but the class list for a computer science degree is a joke, the rest don't offer it. CIS even more so. I'm afraid I'm going to have to get one from a school that offers online delivery so i can do it here. I've been looking at Baker college. (

http://www.baker.com)

the online site is

http://www.bakercollegeonline.com/

They are accredited and i asked if the degree was from "baker online" or just baker and it's baker, not baker online. Another attractive thing is by the time i have my BS in computer science I also have an associates in computer programming, for whatever that's worth.

I'd die to go somewhere like here:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/

but wouldn't we all? not to mention no online delivery.

I've been fortunate in finding the job i have with no formal experience and only self taught skills (thank you oreilly). I probably wouldn't get far in a more populous area against heavier competition without that stupid piece of paper and now only 3 years of formal web programming experience with asp and coldfusion.



If you don't ask the right questions, you don't get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the ABC of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.

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[kHz]

People who use phrases like

...stupid piece of paper...

either don't appreciate an education or are doing it for the wrong reasons. People the world over would literally die for an education, yet some people make comments like the above.