I have been talking about going back to college and getting some type of degree in computers. I have friends in the field and they are telling me that college is all fine a dandy but where i really need to look is certifications. Is this a true statement? Do i really need to spend the time and money on college or save alot and go with company that can teach me then give me the certs.?
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College vs. Certs. 14
- Thread starter Outlaw420
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
Based on your extensive training in C and C++, how do you define "low-devel C queues and stacks".? What is the associated data type(s)?jsteph said:
How so? Please make your case. What were you taught in the C and C++ classes that are relavent and real-world today unlike that which was taught 20 years ago?jsteph said:
Good Luck
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I have read all of these posts and I think I may have come up with a pretty good idea about how each individual feels about the cert/degree life long argument. It can best be summed up with a single word. Interpretation. As CajunCenturion points out, many of the laws are being re-written. Why? Judges/lawyers are now interpreting them differently.
A business is going to hire based on the best needs of the business reguardless of the applicants cert/degree. As TomThumbKP points out, talking with the businesses in the locale would probably be the best way to figure out the answer.
Interpretting which one is more important is almost a flip of a coin. Certifications are more geared towards one particular area, such as CCIE, MCSE, and so on. However, the comment on certs expiring is incorrect. Comptia certs are lifetime.
With a degree, it is a lifetime "certification" that encompasses more than a particular area. You get more exposure to plethora of information, and yes, can specialize in programming, network design, system design, and application design.
Which one is better? Only the person asking the question can interpret the results.
A business is going to hire based on the best needs of the business reguardless of the applicants cert/degree. As TomThumbKP points out, talking with the businesses in the locale would probably be the best way to figure out the answer.
Interpretting which one is more important is almost a flip of a coin. Certifications are more geared towards one particular area, such as CCIE, MCSE, and so on. However, the comment on certs expiring is incorrect. Comptia certs are lifetime.
With a degree, it is a lifetime "certification" that encompasses more than a particular area. You get more exposure to plethora of information, and yes, can specialize in programming, network design, system design, and application design.
Which one is better? Only the person asking the question can interpret the results.
Cajun,
Agian, the 20-year old CS degree says much less about one's ability to program (and I specifically had stated from the beginning "...with only a 20 year old CS degree and nothing else") than a recent class-completed form from a community college for a relevant language. And to clarify--my saying what I've said about the CS degree is not meant to say that those with a CS degree are dinosaurs, but if a CS degree is all you've got to show me, I don't care how much you know about linked-lists, queues, dequeues, etc, if you can't sit down and produce something, that doesn't mean anything to the company.
I work for a company that produces a product. And they find me extremely valuable, because I don't sit there and get into nerdy diatribes with the CFO about how this can't be done or that shouldn't be done this way because the Gods of Programming theory think it's wrong. I get the job done correctly and efficiently and that, in the final analysis, is what I'm paid for and what my staff is paid for.
--Jim
Anything having to do with windowing, for instance. Even in my classes (around 1996) there was still a lot of console programming, but we used Borland as our language vendor and learned the Object Window Library, which definitely was not taught (nor was MS's MFC) 20 years ago. Most business apps these days use some sort of Windowing, very few new development for business is console apps. Yes I get your point that the structural topics are essentially the same, but this is a specific instance that just wasn't there 20 years ago. And my guess is that Object Oriented design wasn't taught in great detail 20 years ago either. I know it existed, but it wasn't mainstream until C++ came along, which was roughly 20 years ago.
I'm not going to get baited into a technical discussion about this, except to say that in C, we had to manually push/pop stacks, manually allocate/deallocate memory, etc, etc. All that stuff is handled by higher level languages so the programmer does not need to bother with those things. And I think you know that, but are just baiting me into a technical discussion that just takes away from the true gist of this thread and my points.
What depreciates is the notion that the holder knows how to program. Again, the point was the value of the degree for a job applicant, specifically for business programming. Certainly it may not be worthless, but as I'd said, I would put a lot more stock in a recent certification on, say, XML development (and don't try and bait me by asking me to list all the XML certs out there, you know that's another deflection that doesn't affect the gist of this).
Agian, the 20-year old CS degree says much less about one's ability to program (and I specifically had stated from the beginning "...with only a 20 year old CS degree and nothing else") than a recent class-completed form from a community college for a relevant language. And to clarify--my saying what I've said about the CS degree is not meant to say that those with a CS degree are dinosaurs, but if a CS degree is all you've got to show me, I don't care how much you know about linked-lists, queues, dequeues, etc, if you can't sit down and produce something, that doesn't mean anything to the company.
I work for a company that produces a product. And they find me extremely valuable, because I don't sit there and get into nerdy diatribes with the CFO about how this can't be done or that shouldn't be done this way because the Gods of Programming theory think it's wrong. I get the job done correctly and efficiently and that, in the final analysis, is what I'm paid for and what my staff is paid for.
--Jim
kHz,
You are quoting something that doesn't make sense. Are you inferring that a medical doctor has a CS degree?
By the way, in order for a doctor to retain his license to practice medicine, he has to attend XX (depends on the state) amount of hours in further education curriculum. This does go against everything that jsteph has stated. He stated "a programmer with only a 20 year old CS degree and nothing else." which I interpret as further education. How do you interpret it?
You are quoting something that doesn't make sense. Are you inferring that a medical doctor has a CS degree?
By the way, in order for a doctor to retain his license to practice medicine, he has to attend XX (depends on the state) amount of hours in further education curriculum. This does go against everything that jsteph has stated. He stated "a programmer with only a 20 year old CS degree and nothing else." which I interpret as further education. How do you interpret it?
CajunCenturion
Programmer
jsteph - I think you completely misunderstand what a CS degree represents, and what is actually being taught.
The reason that OWL wasn't taught, nor should it taught then or now, is because it is not the purpose of university CS curriculum to teach a commercial product. The intent is to teach you how to program, and the fundamental aspects of programming language. If all you want to learn is a specific vendor's product, such as OWL or MFC, then by all means, attend one of that vendor's schools and get your certificate. It is very true that vendor's products will become obsolete, and if you know is a vendor's product, then you will become obsolete. That's why universities don't teach products, they use products to teach concepts, and the concepts, like the ability to program, and the understanding of programming logic, hasn't become obsolete.
In your case, you are comparing a 20 year old degree, with no experience, to someone fresh out of tech school with no experience, but with a relavent language. I think that's where you're missing the boat. Knowling a langugage, and knowing how to program are two different things. Obviously, someone who has a 20 year old CS degree and hasn't been in the business for 20 years will be stale and likely will have forgotten quite a few things, but that doesn't make the degree obsolete. Nor does it justify, in my opinion, making broad generalizations about the degree.
You claim to get the job done correct and efficiently. I have no doubt that your code works, nor can I dispute that you're efficient. However, anyone can say that, but can you back it up? By what standard are judging efficiency? What's your baseline? How do you know that a different approach wouldn't be more efficient? What software engineering metrics are being applied to objectively evaluate your efficiency? That too is part of many CS degree programs.
Good Luck
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The reason that OWL wasn't taught, nor should it taught then or now, is because it is not the purpose of university CS curriculum to teach a commercial product. The intent is to teach you how to program, and the fundamental aspects of programming language. If all you want to learn is a specific vendor's product, such as OWL or MFC, then by all means, attend one of that vendor's schools and get your certificate. It is very true that vendor's products will become obsolete, and if you know is a vendor's product, then you will become obsolete. That's why universities don't teach products, they use products to teach concepts, and the concepts, like the ability to program, and the understanding of programming logic, hasn't become obsolete.
I'm not trying to bait you into anything. I'm trying to figure why you think a CS degree would become obsolete. Of course you had to write the code to manually push and pop stacks, and to manually allocate and deallocate memory, because stacks and queues don't exist natively in C. They don't exist in any language either until a programmer actually writes an implementation for one. That is the value of the lesson - to learn what a stack is and how to implement one. Once you know that, then you can use stacks when the application calls for it, and you know how to implement one, and can do it in any language. As far as business applicability, the most efficient way to implement an inventory system that uses LIFO accounting is a stack based system. On the other hand, for FIFO inventories, you're better off using a queue based system. That's the kind of concept that you learn in a good university CS program. That directly relates to business programming, and in turn, to the efficiency of the business systems.jsteph said:
In your case, you are comparing a 20 year old degree, with no experience, to someone fresh out of tech school with no experience, but with a relavent language. I think that's where you're missing the boat. Knowling a langugage, and knowing how to program are two different things. Obviously, someone who has a 20 year old CS degree and hasn't been in the business for 20 years will be stale and likely will have forgotten quite a few things, but that doesn't make the degree obsolete. Nor does it justify, in my opinion, making broad generalizations about the degree.
You claim to get the job done correct and efficiently. I have no doubt that your code works, nor can I dispute that you're efficient. However, anyone can say that, but can you back it up? By what standard are judging efficiency? What's your baseline? How do you know that a different approach wouldn't be more efficient? What software engineering metrics are being applied to objectively evaluate your efficiency? That too is part of many CS degree programs.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Then you know that a doctor with nothing but a 20 year old medical degree not only would not, but could not get a job.
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
I will say that the things I've learned in CS classes I've been in and CS-oriented books I've read have definitely been of use in the business programming I've done. Additional tools to solve problems are always good. Of course, you run into the problem that the other 99% of people that would maintain the program would need a course just to understand it (and yes I ran into that a couple of times).
mikeydidit
IS-IT--Management
I have been watching this thread from the beginning. I have started several times to post something and hesitated for several reasons. The main reason would be that I am not in the “programming field”. But after reading all 50 posts, I think that this would be no different than any other technical position. The more you know the more you are worth. I do not hold any degree’s but have been in the work force for about 30 years now, so I have seen my share and know what works and what does not. I started here 23 years ago as a helper and now manage our department. I have picked up a lot of certs along the way, but the lack of a degree will stop me from going where I would like to end up at. I have watched my boss take night classes for years now and she now has a BS in computer sciences and just finished with her MBA. It didn’t happen over night. She has done this while working, and taking care of her husband and her child. She soon will be our next director. The point to this would be to never stop doing whatever it takes to better yourself. Personally I think that now days both would be your best option. One or the other is OK but if you really intend on opening as many doors as you can, then finish your degree’s and get as many cert.’s to go with them as you can. As for me, I still take every class I can. It keeps me sharp in my field and helps me be the best I can be at my job.
Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center
Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center
Cajun,
I do understand this, and I understand and agree with you on the importance of the fundamental concepts.
As an example:
On these forums there are many 'walking F1 keys'--those who can come up with a quick answer to certain questions that are basically rote knowledge or things easily found via the f1 key. I don't waste valuable brain space memorizing things that are easily looked up, such as the exact order and data-type of the arguments for some function, my value to my current employer is beyond that. Knowing *when* or *if* to use said function is more important. Maybe if I'm in need of a purple star I'll troll and pick up the easy meat with my eyes closed by hitting F1 and answering a poster who didn't.
In my opinion, a software language or tool is a commodity, anyone with the type of mindset I have can pick up the syntax, etc, of a new language in a few weeks, learn the quirks and gotcha's in another few, and be productive within a month, then down the road with enough experience can work on points for style and become a master. This is because of the the fundamental concepts of how to take a project spec and make it a reality with whatever tool necessary.
My former employer, a consulting firm, saw that value. It didn't matter which language/tool/platform the client or PM may have spec'd for the project--they knew I was the go-to guy even if I'd never heard of the tool, because I knew how to build a sensible application regardless of the tool.
So while I may not have any 'guidelines' to show you how I measure my effectiveness, I was the last remaining consultant at a firm where I started as the 139th coder just 5 years prior (which, I will add, was only 5 years after I'd first so much as touched a computer in my life), until I finally took a client offer, one that I'd refused for many months for legal and salary reasons. I was never on the bench and was always the first choice for any key project--and there were no politics involved with me getting the good projects--it was because I always delivered. 90% of the other consultants had CS degrees, many with masters degrees, one with a doctorate in CS. All of them, to a person, were benched and then let go as the incoming project started to dry up in the early '00's. To me, that's a better guideline as any piece of paper.
But specifically, your original response to me seemed to be based on my use of the term 'obsolete'. My use of that was in the context of a poster who said that a degree never expires, while a certification does. And while *legally* that may be the case, in practicality I disagree . Even though one may have learned the CS degree fundamentals 20 years ago, just having that piece of paper shouldn't give him a necessary advantage just because the sanctioning body of the cert wisely chose to put an expiration date on it.
--Jim
PS. A star if anyone can name the song from the '70 from which I picked out a couple of turns of phrase used in this post.
mikeydidit
IS-IT--Management
Lita Ford and Ozzy Osborne
"Close my eyes forever"
Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center
"Close my eyes forever"
Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center
Google is a wonderful tool. Wait does this make me a 'Walking F1 Key'. 
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
[red]"... isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway?! I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you are good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick[/red]
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Am I to understand that being able to press F1 to look at a help file is a fundamental concept and that those who have learned the secret of F1 have mastered one of the basic fundamental concepts of Computer Science?
What do purple stars have to do with certifications, degrees, and/or fundamental concepts? What relavence does that have to our discussion?
I agree that a number of languages and tools have become commodities, but it is because of that we are losing touch with the fundamentals. These commodities and wrappers hide the basic fundamentals so that in many cases, people don't even recognize what the basics are. So much is taken for granted. If by saying obsolete, you mean that because we have such wrappers that we don't need to know the basic fundamentals, then I understand your use of obsolete. I completely disagree with you, but I at least understand what you mean.
I suppose that what a pilot learned 20 years ago is obsolete as well because of the tremendous advances of technology and commoditization inside the cockpit. One of these days, we're going to find ourselves so dependant on the commodity, just like an auto-pilot, and in turn, so lacking in our understanding of the basic fundamentals, or even aware of what we're lacking, that no one will be able to fly the plane.
==> It didn't matter which language/tool/platform the client or PM may have spec'd for the project--they knew I was the go-to guy even if I'd never heard of the tool, because I knew how to build a sensible application regardless of the tool.
I think you're using two different definitions of tool in the same sentence. Nevertheless, based on your posts, I accept that you're the go-to guy, (how could I not?) but if you've never heard of a tool, then how can you possibly utilize that tool? If that tool or technique would improve efficiency, then you cannot be performing at peak efficiency no matter who hires you or what projects you're working on. In all fairness, none of us are, because none of us know it all.
I think the artist and song is Dogs by Pink Floyd, with the 'points for style comment'.
As my last comments in this discussion, I'm quote to quote TomThumbKP who said it so brilliantly.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
What do purple stars have to do with certifications, degrees, and/or fundamental concepts? What relavence does that have to our discussion?
I agree that a number of languages and tools have become commodities, but it is because of that we are losing touch with the fundamentals. These commodities and wrappers hide the basic fundamentals so that in many cases, people don't even recognize what the basics are. So much is taken for granted. If by saying obsolete, you mean that because we have such wrappers that we don't need to know the basic fundamentals, then I understand your use of obsolete. I completely disagree with you, but I at least understand what you mean.
I suppose that what a pilot learned 20 years ago is obsolete as well because of the tremendous advances of technology and commoditization inside the cockpit. One of these days, we're going to find ourselves so dependant on the commodity, just like an auto-pilot, and in turn, so lacking in our understanding of the basic fundamentals, or even aware of what we're lacking, that no one will be able to fly the plane.
==> It didn't matter which language/tool/platform the client or PM may have spec'd for the project--they knew I was the go-to guy even if I'd never heard of the tool, because I knew how to build a sensible application regardless of the tool.
I think you're using two different definitions of tool in the same sentence. Nevertheless, based on your posts, I accept that you're the go-to guy, (how could I not?) but if you've never heard of a tool, then how can you possibly utilize that tool? If that tool or technique would improve efficiency, then you cannot be performing at peak efficiency no matter who hires you or what projects you're working on. In all fairness, none of us are, because none of us know it all.
I think the artist and song is Dogs by Pink Floyd, with the 'points for style comment'.
As my last comments in this discussion, I'm quote to quote TomThumbKP who said it so brilliantly.
Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Cajun, you once again misunderstood me--I meant the opposite.
And as my final comments for this, I can't stress this enough--and I thought I had made it clear--but by 'obsolete' (or, my more precise term 'depreciating') what I'm saying is not that what you learn in a CS course is irrelevant, but that that you lose it if you don't keep up with it. If *the degree* is 20 years old, and you've nothing else to show that you've kept up--the *degree* is obsolete, the knowledge, if you've retained it, is not.
--Jim
PS. I gave you a star because I said 'any' who got the reference, though I meant the 'first', so I must refrain from any further stars.
If *the degree* is 20 years old, and you've nothing else to show that you've kept up--the *degree* is obsolete, the knowledge, if you've retained it, is not."
The purpose of CS is simply to teach you logical tools to use in solving problems. IT OTOH is usually involved with teaching vendor tools. So the IT degree has a shorter shelf life - vendor tools change with time, and if you (or the school - be wary there if you select one!) haven't kept up, the degree IS useless with time. At least that's my experience in being involved with both kinds of classes and programs in my college experience.
Why does a CS degree last longer? The logical tools don't change with different languages or vendor tools. A quicksort coded in Java still works the same as a quicksort coded in C. Now, new logical tools may be added with time, and those would make a degree dated.
Now granted, it does take some knowledge of vendor tools to know what would be the best performing tools, but they do give you the tools to function with any language. For example, a quicksort is much less efficient in COBOL, because of the language's own inefficiency at table index addressing. But Combsort performs as well or better on that language (because it purposefully has a minimum number of table index addresses).
Of course, I would be remiss to point out that all college degrees, by their nature, are dated, simply because of the long time that it takes for up-to-date information to be developed and then appear in the college textbooks.
Basic point is that different degrees have varying "information half-lives" (the time it takes for fully half of the presented material to become irrelevant) on them. The CS degree happens to have a longer half-life than IT (which is five years - the degree is dated in business and industry almost as soon as you get it).
The purpose of CS is simply to teach you logical tools to use in solving problems. IT OTOH is usually involved with teaching vendor tools. So the IT degree has a shorter shelf life - vendor tools change with time, and if you (or the school - be wary there if you select one!) haven't kept up, the degree IS useless with time. At least that's my experience in being involved with both kinds of classes and programs in my college experience.
Why does a CS degree last longer? The logical tools don't change with different languages or vendor tools. A quicksort coded in Java still works the same as a quicksort coded in C. Now, new logical tools may be added with time, and those would make a degree dated.
Now granted, it does take some knowledge of vendor tools to know what would be the best performing tools, but they do give you the tools to function with any language. For example, a quicksort is much less efficient in COBOL, because of the language's own inefficiency at table index addressing. But Combsort performs as well or better on that language (because it purposefully has a minimum number of table index addresses).
Of course, I would be remiss to point out that all college degrees, by their nature, are dated, simply because of the long time that it takes for up-to-date information to be developed and then appear in the college textbooks.
Basic point is that different degrees have varying "information half-lives" (the time it takes for fully half of the presented material to become irrelevant) on them. The CS degree happens to have a longer half-life than IT (which is five years - the degree is dated in business and industry almost as soon as you get it).
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